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Re: [lojban] Re: 3 loaves
From: "Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)" <lojbab@lojban.org>
At 10:53 AM 02/09/2000 +0000, sklyanin@pdmi.ras.ru wrote:
>From: sklyanin@pdmi.ras.ru
>
>Ivan Derzhanski wrote:
>
> >> Also it should be {pa barda bliku},
> >> or {pa lo barda bliku}, not {lo pa}.
>
> >Or {lo barda nanba}. One kalach is simply a large quantity
> >of good white bread.
>
>It was my first choice too. However, after that I reread the definition
>of the gismu {nanba} and noticed that it is expressed precisely in the
>same words as that of e.g. {djacu} or other uncountable substances. Compare:
>
>{nanba}: x1 is a quantity of/contains bread [leavened or unleavened] made
> from grains x2
>
>{djacu}: x1 is made of/contains/is a quantity/expanse of water
>
>{cidro}: x1 is a quantity of/contains/is made of hydrogen (H)
>
> >From this parallelism I concluded (prematurely?) that bread is treated in
>lojban as a substance, like water, milk, air etc. So, I decided in favor of
>{bliku} as a safely countable object.
>
>By the way, can we say {pa djacu}, or {pa cidro}? Does it have any reasonable
>meaning?
You are looking at an English artifact. In Lojban, all things are
countable with pa/le and all things are massifiable with pisu'o/lei. In
English, bread is usually a mass noun - "have some bread", not "have a
bread" - so I used the mass wording in the English definition of the gismu.
As for what the unit is, when you attach a count to a traditionally massed
item, it is determined by the context. With English count nouns, we
generally assume the default - the smallest unit that retains the sense of
being a whole. With English mass nouns, using a count indicates a socially
relevant quantity ("Waiter, we would like a beer and two waters.") I would
assume therefore that pa djacu either means a molecule (or other small
portion of water that has all the relevant properties of water), or a
conversationally relevant quantity of water (a glassful or a pitcher). The
same would be true for pa cidro, except that one must strain to come up
with a conversationally relevant usage. How about tanks of various gasses
in a factory? "Load 3 hydrogens and 1 helium on the truck" would have a
clearly Lojban counterpart.
The difference of course is that Lojban does not restrict when this can be
done at all.
lojbab
----
lojbab lojbab@lojban.org
Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc.
2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA 703-385-0273
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org
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