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Re: [lojban] Essay on the future of Lojban, with a simple poll for the community.



Probably the most fundamentally unnatural and perhaps even 'uncognizable' part of Lojban is the formal grammar. The structures of the formal grammar are nothing like those found in natural languages. And I rather doubt whether anybody does or can internalize the formal grammar as part of learning and using Lojban; rather, I suspect every Lojban speaker has internalized syntactic rules inductively from usage and teaching materials and intuition. Lojban's claim to nonambiguity and parsability rests on a grammar that I'd wager is no part of any Lojban idiolect.

--And.

Pierre Abbat, On 10/04/2010 02:07:
On Friday 09 April 2010 13:32:38 Christopher Doty wrote:
This is an interesting issue, I think, because I see the idea of
"mind-bending stuff," while certainly very cool, to be diametrically
opposed to any hope of having Lojban widely adopted as an
international/auxiliary/talking-to-computers/whatever language--there are
plenty of things that natural languages do which are plenty mind-bending to
speakers of English, but they don't violate general principles of what
languages do and what they don't do, while Lojban does in any number of
respects.

I don't see many ways Lojban violates general principles of languages. The following traits are AFAIK unique to the Loglanic family:
*Terminators for grammatical constructs, to enable unambiguous parsing.
*An indefinitely long sequence of verb arguments, instead of a morphosyntactic alignment. *Verbs, common nouns, adjectives, and adverbs combined into one part of speech. But there are universals concerning the combining of these parts of speech. *Unambiguously lexable and parsable words (even Esperanto fails that, as "avaro" can mean either "avarice" or "collection of grandfathers").

There are other language families with unique features. Mayan languages have a part of speech found in no other languages; Afro-Asiatic has roots consisting of consonants which are inflected by inserting different vowels; Salishan languages have words that challenge the notion of syllable.

But when I compared Lojban to a list of universals, I found only one clear violation (and a lot of n/a's): in a phrase like "these three blue houses", if all three modifiers are on the same side of the head word, the number is in the middle of the three. The Lojban is "ci vi blanu zdani", and the word for "these" is a spatial tense.

Pierre

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