Re: [lojban] .i ki'u lo cribe mi na sipna

[Jorge Llambías <jjllambias@gmail.com>]

On Sat, Sep 4, 2010 at 4:32 AM, tomoj <thomasjack@gmail.com> wrote:
> Consider {.i mi na cusku bau la .lojban.}. This clearly means "it is
> not the case that: I discuss in Lojban". There appears to be some
> confusion, though, with some BAI (natlang's fault, I think). Consider
> also {.i mi na cusku ki'u lo nu mi na djica}. This looks like "I don't
> discuss because I don't want to", but in fact (I claim) means "it is
> not the case that: I discuss because I don't want to" (vagueness
> aside).

You are right. This is mentioned in CLL, see example 2.14:
http://jbotcan.org/docs/cll/c15/s2.html

> The corpus has plenty of examples of 'BAI ma' used with {na}:
>
> 15 Aug 2003 14:36:23 <rlpowell> mu'i ma do na nelci loi kabri
> 22 Mar 2005 17:12:37 <bancus> ki'u ma le mi cmene na cmima
> 24 Mar 2005 07:39:45 <Broca> ki'u ma la norsmu cu na spuda
> 05 Jul 2005 14:40:59 <Eimi> mu'i ma do na se mikce doi bancus
> 14 Apr 2009 06:58:15 <timonator> ki'u ma na djica
> 10 Aug 2009 01:30:05 <gunkamanti> ri'a ma la'e di'u na gendra
>
> If my claim above is correct, {lo cribe} is a correct answer to all
> these questions.

I would accept those as correct, because the modal is placed before
the negation, and I take the scope of an operator that comes before to
be wider than that of the operator that comes later. I don't take the
"na" bridi operator as always having scope over other bridi operators.
The special rule given in CLL for "na" just doesn't work. Consider for
example:

mu'i ma do na nelci loi kabri gi'e na se mikce

How do you deal with the special na-rule there?

> We can use a periphrasis like {.i ma krinu lo nu na ...}, or simply
> use {na'e} if it's appropriate. Are there any other nice ways around
> this?

If you want to put the "ki'u" after the "na", then you can use "na'e"
as you say, which is selbri-internal, or you can use a separate bridi:
"na broda .iki'ubo mo"

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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