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Re: General Commentary On Lojban Community Work (was Re: [lojban] Semi-technical help needed: New CLL diffs.)
How's it going?
-Robin
On Fri, Jul 30, 2010 at 12:30:52PM -0600, Alan Post wrote:
> I'm working on it, actually.
>
> I'm part way though, and I can talk about where I'm at or where I'm
> not, or could even hand off what I've got if someone wants to pick
> it up.
>
> If not, it will get done as I snatch time.
>
> -Alan
>
> On Fri, Jul 30, 2010 at 11:11:30AM -0700, Robin Lee Powell wrote:
> > As far as I know, nothing has happened with this. I may be missing
> > vast activity under the surface, in which case I apologize in
> > advance.
> >
> > On Fri, Jun 11, 2010 at 10:31:16AM -0700, Robin Lee Powell wrote:
> > >
> > > http://github.com/dag is the repo for the new CLL, all prettified
> > > and broken up and stuff, that a few different people made.
> > >
> > > The goal/plan is as follows:
> > >
> > > 1. Turn this into a set of content diffs (not formatting diffs);
> > > that is, a complete list of everything that is a change to *content*
> > > in the CLL.
> > >
> > > 2. Give said list to me/the BPFK for approval.
> > >
> > > 3. Turn the thing into DocBook, if it isn't already.
> > >
> > > 4. Make it official: post it on the main site at least, and at some
> > > point in the near future start publishing it via Lightning Source.
> > >
> > > I need someone to do step 1.
> > >
> > > I call this semi-technical because you need to at least understand
> > > git, and knowing how to do scripted text processing is probably
> > > important.
> > >
> > > Remo was going to do this, but ey's disappeared.
> >
> > Here's what happened from my point of view, ignoring my initial
> > crappy response, on this new CLL thing:
> >
> > 1. A bunch of people put in a bunch of work creating the new online
> > CLL version. This included me providing access to the master soft
> > copy of the print CLL.
> >
> > 2. It became clear that people wanted to use this version as a
> > basis for any new print CLL that might be made.
> >
> > 3. I pointed out that in its current form it wasn't of any actual
> > use for that purpose. I talked to the people involved. They,
> > primarily Remo, agreed to modify it as specified above.
> >
> > 4. Shortly thereafter, Remo *totally disappeared*. No-one has
> > heard from em in months. None of the other people involved in that
> > discussion have done anything.
> >
> > 5. I asked the community to help. This was met with much
> > enthusiasm.
> >
> > 6. Nothing actually happened.
> >
> > So, I guess I'm going to have to find the time for this. Some day.
> > *AGAIN*.
> >
> > While I'm at it, I've seen no changes to the BPFK stuff in about 2
> > months, except the ones I have made. So I guess I'm
> > single-handedly stuck with that too. *AGAIN*.
> >
> > There has been a pattern lately of me refusing to support the pet
> > project of every random newbie that shows up on IRC (usually a
> > website redesign), and then getting yelled at for being cranky and
> > unsupportive. I always say that people should just do the project
> > themselves, and if they're still around and supporting it in six
> > months, I'll be as supportive as they want me to be. So far, to my
> > knowledge, no such conversation has *ever* resulted in this actually
> > happening.
> >
> > I just wanted to point out that this (the CLL work) is the perfect
> > example of the standard pattern that leads me to be dismissive of
> > everyone's "Oh, I just found Lojban! I'm going to fix everything!
> > I'm going to make X! It's going to be awesome!". Here's the
> > pattern:
> >
> > 1. People go and do a bunch of work without bothering to actually
> > ask what the community needs.
> >
> > 2. I point out what the community actually needs relative to what
> > they did; this entails a great deal more work.
> >
> > 3. Shortly thereafter, the person disappears forever, but by this
> > time the community has gotten used to using whatever they made.
> >
> > 4. I start getting requests for maintenance/fixes of whatever it
> > is.
> >
> > This has happened so many times I've totally lost count. Sometimes
> > (*very* rarely, I can only think of one example) the person doesn't
> > disappear, they just stop supporting whatever it is. I still end
> > up with people bugging *me* to fix/maintain it.
> >
> > I'm very, very tired of this. I'm also having a rough time in my
> > personal life lately. I would like nothing more than to see other
> > members of the Lojban community actually stand up and get shit done
> > over a time period lasting longer than, say, a month.
> >
> > But mostly I'm writing this so I can stick it on the web and point
> > newbies at it when they whine about how obstructionist I'm being.
> >
> > I am not, and have never been, obstructionist of anything (except
> > legally bad things like copyright violation). If you want to do
> > something awesome, great: go make it. Host it yourself. Find out
> > what the community wants first. If, in six months, you're still
> > around and happily supporting it, I'll put it wherever you and the
> > community want in shared Lojban space, even right at
> > http://www.lojban.org/ (as a side comment, this is exactly how I
> > became webmaster of the Lojban community in the first place).
> >
> > Until then, please show some respect to the people (me and 2 or 3
> > others) who have been carrying this project across the backs (well,
> > littered corpses really, given all the disappearances) of people
> > like you for the last three decades (although for me it's only been
> > one).
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > -Robin
> >
> > --
> > http://singinst.org/ : Our last, best hope for a fantastic future.
> > Lojban (http://www.lojban.org/): The language in which "this parrot
> > is dead" is "ti poi spitaki cu morsi", but "this sentence is false"
> > is "na nei". My personal page: http://www.digitalkingdom.org/rlp/
> >
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> >
>
> --
> ko djuno fi le do sevzi
>
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--
http://singinst.org/ : Our last, best hope for a fantastic future.
Lojban (http://www.lojban.org/): The language in which "this parrot
is dead" is "ti poi spitaki cu morsi", but "this sentence is false"
is "na nei". My personal page: http://www.digitalkingdom.org/rlp/
--
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