Re: [lojban] Technical, Help Request: What information *should* a Lojban dictionary system have?

[Kevin Reid <kpreid@switchb.org>]

On Sep 11, 2010, at 17:50, Robin Lee Powell wrote:

> What got this started is the realization that Lojban isn't English,
> and that, in particular, the brivla definitions seem anti-Lojbanic.
> When I see
>
>  x1 gets/procures/acquires/obtains/accepts x2 from source x3
>
> that kind of looks to me like a verb; I see the big thing in the
> middle as being "the meaning" of "the verb".
...
> In particular, it seemed to me that if you had the right kind of
> information about the places, you could generate the sort of
> definiton I pasted above automatically from that.


I think this is a dangerous idea, and arguably less Lojbanic than the  
current definition format.

Lojban is not English; selbri places are not prepositions. The  
definition of a selbri is the *RELATION* among *ALL* of the places,  
not the combination of the meanings of individual places. Insofar as a  
gismu, at least, can readily be described by describing each of its  
places individually, it is incoherent and ought to be trimmed back.

For example:

sumji
  x1 is a mathematical sum/result/total of x2 plus/increased by x3

If you rewrite this definition in terms of the places

	x1	sum
	x2	summand #1/2
	x3	summand #2/2

then this has *OBSCURED* the actual relationship, by omitting the  
information about how x1 is related to x2 except implicitly.

What would be an improvement in the area of "avoiding the verb" is  
having the brivla definitions be given with each of the places as the  
English subject; for example:

spati
  x1 is a plant of species x2.
  x2 is the species of plant x1.

(I've omitted the / words from the gismu list definition for brevity.)

The latter (with the numbers changed) could also be used as a  
definition of {selspati}, and that sort of thing does occur in  
jbovlaste (for example, I wrote a definition for {tersmu} so that I  
could index it under the English verb "understand"), but I think that  
it would be better if a single brivla entry (especially for lujvo,  
which are not as obviously sel-convertable) contained the “English  
verb” perspectives for *all* of its places.

--
Kevin Reid                                  <http://switchb.org/kpreid/>



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