Re: [lojban] Quotation mark argument.

[Remo Dentato <rdentato@gmail.com>]

I like the lojban audio-visual isomorphism and I think it's one of the
most important features of the language.
having said that, I also think that flat lojban text is a major
obstacle to newcomers. I can feel their pain when confronted to a
block of text  which seems it has no structure at all. As a computer
programmer, I always think about the IOCCC contest when I start
reading something.

I see quotation marks as mere shortands and, as long as there is a
consistent 1-to-1 correspondance I don't see them breaking the
audio-visual isomorphism.

Let say that '<' is read as "lu" and '>' as "li'u" (just an example,
no proposal here!) I would read:

mi cusku <mi klama>

aloud exactly as I would read

mi cusku lu mi klama li'u

same goes for 1 -> pa etc.

My rule of thumb would be that if I can restore the original lojban
text with a simple search and replace I would be fine.
The option of having quotation in additiin is even better as you
simply map the quote marks to no sound at all.

This type of shortening, I think, should only be done with extreme
care. I have no opinion on whether there should be a standard for that
or not

my two cents


On Thursday, September 23, 2010, Brian Robertson
<raposa.msscripting@gmail.com> wrote:
> There was a fairly heated argument in #jbopre about the use of quotation
> marks in xorxes' alis work. I've edited it down and am posting it here
> to make the arguments public to everyone interested, and possibly quell
> any open hatred for the use of quotes from saupre.
>
> ---
>
> <@rlpowell> Oh god you've got quote marks.  >:|
>  * rlpowell isn't sure he's OK with hosting that under his own name.
> < Hugglesworth> rlpowell: why such brutal hatred for quote marks?
>  * Hugglesworth knows we've been over this before; long ago. He just forgets
> <@rlpowell> Hugglesworth: Audio-visual isomorphism
> <@rlpowell> Which I really, *really* like.
> <@rlpowell> If you're going to replace lu/li'u and say "left-quote is pronounced lu in this work", .... enh.  I can live.
> <@rlpowell> But to have them *in addition* breaks one of my favorite parts of the language.
> < tomoj> in addition seems the only good way to me
> <@rlpowell> Because {.i ca bo ca'o cusku «lu .oi} *in Lojban* is {.i ca bo ca'o cusku zunle bu lu .oi}, OSLT
> <@rlpowell> tomoj: Does that explain?
> < tomoj> I'd rather just ignore all non-lojban characters
> <@rlpowell> I don't much like them instead-of either, because I really like Lojban's simple morphology.
> <@rlpowell> But in-addition-to ... just no.
> <@rlpowell> tomoj: Then what happens to zoi?
> < tomoj> except when quoted
> <@rlpowell> I may just be being crotchety, but I *really* like audio-visual isomorphism, and it upsets me when people fuck with it.
> <@rlpowell> xorxes: I wasn't really kidding.
> < tomoj> it's already fucked up
> < tomoj> speech has many features which aren't represented in lojban text
> <@rlpowell> tomoj: Only in extremely rare cases involving zoi, as far as I know.
> <@rlpowell> tomoj: Umm.  Not Lojban as I speak it.
> < tomoj> to aid in verbal understanding for example
> < tomoj> the rate at which you say the words, for example
> < xorxes> It makes the text much more readable
> < jcowan> rlpowell: And yet you don't object to indentation/blank lines between paragraphs, or non-essential spaces between words?
> <@rlpowell> Not to me.  And I hate that kind of quote mark anyways.
> < tomoj> similarly we might use features in text which aren't necessarily represented in speech
> <@rlpowell> jcowan: THose don't communicate any information.
> < tomoj> neither do these
> <@rlpowell> Same with tomoj's speech speed.
> < tomoj> that's why in-addition-to is good
> < jcowan> Of course they do.  Paragraph marking duplicates ni'o.
> < tomoj> in-addition-to means you never use a « to mean anything at all
> < tomoj> it's just there to aid the eye when reading
> < jcowan> Exactly.
> < xorxes> they are like the pictures in the middle of the text
> < tomoj> if you make a mistake doing in-addition-to and write "«" where you want "«lu", your text is ungrammatical
> < jcowan> tomoj: Or else it isn't, which is worse.
> < Hugglesworth> rlpowell: do you have a problem with the paragraph tabs?
> <@rlpowell> jcowan: You're right; if my complaint is that I can't speak out this text to a Lojbanist and get the same text back (which is exactly me complaint), I need to include thinsg like blank lines in said complaining, or STFU.  And indentation at the start of paragraphs, and suchlike.
> <@rlpowell> Hugglesworth: ^^ you too
> <@rlpowell> < xorxes> they are like the pictures in the middle of the text -- and that.
> <@rlpowell> So yeah, I have a problem, in that I'm conflating "sounds must always communicate the same basic information as words" with "the text must come back identical".
> < jcowan> Another case of non-exact-isomorphism is digits vs. digit words, and yet a mathematical work in Lojban that doesn't have any digits would be a huge pain.
> <@rlpowell> jcowan: Explain?
> <@rlpowell> Oh, NM; I get it.
> <@rlpowell> Yeah.
> <@rlpowell> Objection withdrawn.
> <@rlpowell> I think someone should condense this and post it to the list, because I suspect that a lot of oldbies that are bothered by the quote thing were doing the same conflation as I was.
>
> ---
>
> .lorx.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.
>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.