Re: [lojban] Re: Counterfactual Conditions

You could probably get a good discussion going about what 'da'i' does, but the gist is that it sets up an alternate world (how alternate is a hard question and would be at the center of the discussion), differing at least in that the hypothesis that describes it is one false in this here world. Then you claim that, in that world, something else would be true. And then, in a serious case, you have to convince others that it really would be true over there. (Maybe, thinking slightly more baby terms, I should say "an alternate history" since we are all familiar with that.). Did I miss the 'da'i' in your examples? I only recall your talking about 'ganai ... gi..." (truth functional if-then, false only when the antecedent (the 'ganai' part) is true and the consequent (after 'gi') false) and truth functional biconditional (true only if the two parts have the same truth value, both true or both false). If we reduce case 2 to either one of these, the result is true, but uninterestingly so, since it results from the fact that both parts are in fact false (if you peal off all the subjunctive stuff). You might as well say "If Oswald didn't shoot Kennedy, then I am Queen of the May" (I'm not). Counterfactual conditionals are just a different breed from "ordinary" "if,,, then,,," (which we rarely, if ever, use). Most of our conditional sentences are at least forward looking -- so in a different world/time -- and explicitly counterfactual. The priority of this odd conditional is a product of fallowing Logic, where it is everybody's favorite -- mainly because it behaves so well, unlike counterfactuals.

From: Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Mon, November 1, 2010 12:51:50 PM
Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Counterfactual Conditions

But I thought that precisely what da'i does? (And remember, I'm not a linguist. If I'm wrong, please explain this to me in baby terms)

--gejyspa

On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 6:14 PM, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:

Nice, but your 2 is merely a (truth functional) biconditional, not a
counterfactual (non-truth functional) conditional. Counterfactual involve
moving into the subjunctive or setting up alternate worlds, not just mucking
aout with truth function in this one.

----- Original Message ----
From: Lindar <lindarthebard@yahoo.com>
To: lojban <lojban@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thu, October 28, 2010 4:37:07 PM
Subject: [lojban] Re: Counterfactual Conditions

> (1) is an indicative conditional
Expressed with the appropriate mu'i/ki'u/ri'a/bai/etc.

> (2) is a counterfactual conditional

.o/jo/gu'o/gi'e/go

If I understand it correctly, one necessitates the other in this
instance.

Where {.i ganai carvi gi mi bevri lo santa} says that I carry the
umbrella if it rains, {.i go carvi gi mi bevri lo santa} says that if
it rains, I bring my umbrella, and if I bring my umbrella, it rains.
(Feel free to correct me on this.)

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