Forwarded conversationSubject:
Logical Naming Conventions------------------------
From: Danny Piccirillo <danny.piccirillo@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 22:20
To: lojban-list@lojban.org
Some of you on the channel may already be familiar with my plan to legally change my name.
I have a lot of issues with the traditional naming system. Last names-- wtf? Take it from dad or mom or both? Why not neither? Gender neutrality. Lack of meaning (i'm not sure how i feel about that one).
How do all of you feel about naming? If you had to choose your own name, how would you do it any why?
My plan was originally to find something i can identify with (perhaps it was spoons, for some odd reason), then find an appropriate lojban translation, and if i liked how it sounded for a name, and it was shortenable to a nickname, i would legally change my name to it (and abandon my last name). What i'm torn between is choosing a name with meaning, or choosing a name purely because it sounds nice. What makes the most sense to you guys? I've been having a LOT of trouble finding something i can really identify with =[
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From: <MorphemeAddict@wmconnect.com>
Date: Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 22:29
To: lojban-list@lojban.org
I have issues with names too. I want my name to be unique, or at the very least, very rare.
Names are very personal. You should go with what you like. If that means it sounds nice, or has a meaning you can identify with, go with that.
stevo
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From: Danny Piccirillo <danny.piccirillo@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 23:04
To: lojban-list@lojban.org
Ah, that brings up another thing. Should names be 100% unique? That seems pretty impossible to me, but worth at least a moment of thought
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From: Craig Daniel <craigbdaniel@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 23:25
To: lojban-list@lojban.org
The Lojban community is small enough that they can be, for now.
So far as I know, I'm still the only .kreig. around, although I
imagine any new arrivals named John would want to at least consider
picking something less obvious than .djan.
- mi'e .kreig.daniyl.
noi pilno lo lanzu cmene
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From: <MorphemeAddict@wmconnect.com>
Date: Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 23:39
To: lojban-list@lojban.org
There is no reason or need for names to be unique, except as a personal preference, as in my case. I get by in my life just fine with my given name, and I don't personally know anyone else who has my name. Even my mother and one of my aunts, who share exactly the same name, don't have any problems with sharing their name.
It's a problem only for the minority of people who are not satisfied with the name they have.
Asking if names should be unique is implying that names should be forced on people. I vehemently object to anything like that. Names should be a matter of choice, of personal freedom. If you don't like your name, change it. As many times as you want.
stevo
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From: Danny Piccirillo <danny.piccirillo@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 01:03
To: lojban-list@lojban.org
Mm, true. That was really just a side concern to everything else which i'm still not sure how i feel about.
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From: Oleksii Melnyk <lamelnyk@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 07:16
To: lojban-list@lojban.org
The name should be globally unique "number" (like those found in
passports, etc), in Bubble-Babble (or similar) encoding. Parts of it
are "short" name for everyday use, still unique enough (if 2 or more
syllables used "birthday problem" arises near 300 persons -- quite a
big party).
mi'e xolik-lyvyz-raxax mu'o do'u
2009/4/29, Danny Piccirillo <
danny.piccirillo@gmail.com>:
--
mu'o mi'e lex
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From: Pierre Abbat <phma@phma.optus.nu>
Date: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 07:25
To: lojban-list@lojban.org
I think there should be one family name passed down by the mother and another
passed down by the father. I don't know of any culture that does that,
though.
Pierre
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From: Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 09:10
To: lojban-list@lojban.org
So, Pierre, in that system what would happen in the following generation? Let's say:
A + B marry and have children who take both A and B. Now we have AB. So now AB wants to marry the child of X + Y. So now we have
AB + XY marry and have children who take both AB and XY and now we haev ABXY. For generation n a person would have 2^n names.
I like Asimov's idea from his "Foundation" series. In it there's a planet that does naming according to who you are/what you've done/other things about you, and your name is a massive string of all these things with the most intrinsically you things being closer to the beginning. People can then use as much of their name as they please in day to day life. For instance, under this system, I might call myself: "skamilojbozoigo" although skami, lojban, and go are more interests so I would obviously put a little more thought into it. But then in day to day life I'd say "just call me skamil" or some such.
- Luke Bergen----------
From: Craig Daniel <craigbdaniel@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 09:59
To: lojban-list@lojban.org
Spain does it that way.
Although, in non-gender-neutral fashion, the one you get from your
mother is the one she got from her father.
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From: Pierre Abbat <phma@phma.optus.nu>
Date: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 10:02
To: lojban-list@lojban.org
If A is AB's patrilineal name and AB is a man, and X is XY's patrilineal name,
their children will be named AY.
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From: Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 10:07
To: lojban-list@lojban.org
ahh, I see. So what if female children took the mothers name while males took the fathers name, that way there'd be a better chance of the maternal name surviving?
- Luke Bergen----------
From: <MorphemeAddict@wmconnect.com>
Date: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 11:02
To: lojban-list@lojban.org
Why is it necessary, or even desirable, for a name to survive?
stevo
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From: Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 11:09
To: lojban-list@lojban.org
I don't know. I guess "carrying on the family name"
is kind of an archaic idea.
- Luke Bergen----------
From: Danny Piccirillo <danny.piccirillo@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 11:46
To: lojban-list@lojban.org
Yes, it is. Some families are the "normal" mom and dad, or they are gay, and now, polyamorous families are starting to come in. Then there are divorces, single parents, adoption, re-marrying, etc, etc. Families are much too complicated for family names to work, and i don't think they're worth it anyway.
I've already planned to abandon my last name, so now i just need to figure out what to adopt for a new name. Asimov's idea that Luke posted certainly is interesting and i like it but it obviously isn't very practical. Do you guys prefer naemes that you can identify with, or just names with no (or very little) meaning that sound nice?
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From: Steve Sloan <steve@finagle.org>
Date: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 11:59
To: lojban-list@lojban.org
Absolutely, that's why I'm naming my kids 7545b465-0ef8-45b6-976c-9756ea9eaf68 and 7a8729b7-d128-4891-8835-d444075d5eb5. ;)
-- Steve----------
From: <MorphemeAddict@wmconnect.com>
Date: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 11:59
To: lojban-list@lojban.org
I don't go by the sound much at all. A name like "Wahoolawallahoo" would just be random nonsense, regardless of how 'nice' it sounds. I wouldn't want a name that is nonsense. Even a number is better than that.
ST3VO
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From: <MorphemeAddict@wmconnect.com>
Date: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 12:00
To: lojban-list@lojban.org
Asimov's idea
Where in the Foundation books does he talk about names?
stevo
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From: Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 12:07
To: lojban-list@lojban.org
In the last two books I believe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaia_(Foundation_universe)
- Luke Bergen----------
From: <MorphemeAddict@wmconnect.com>
Date: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 12:26
To: lojban-list@lojban.org
I looked there, but they don't actually mention naming conventions, although they do give one name without any clarification.
stevo
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From: tijlan <jbotijlan@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 10:07
To: lojban-list@lojban.org
The Icelandic naming system goes like this:
{a.A} (patfu) + {b.B} (mamta)
-> {c.A-sson} (bersa) / {d.A-dóttir} (tixnu)
or
-> {c.B-sson} (bersa) / {d.B-dóttir} (tixnu)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icelandic_name
mu'o mi'e tijlan
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From: tijlan <jbotijlan@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 10:09
To: lojban-list@lojban.org
No, actually:
-> {c.a-sson} (bersa) / {d.a-dóttir} (tixnu)
or
-> {c.b-sson} (bersa) / {d.b-dóttir} (tixnu)
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From: Danny Piccirillo <danny.piccirillo@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 12:50
To: lojban-list@lojban.org
Well, my name is Danny, and that to me has no meaning. Does this qualify as a "nonsense" name? I'm just asking to make sure we're talking about the same thing.
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From: <MorphemeAddict@wmconnect.com>
Date: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 13:00
To: lojban-list@lojban.org
I would say it's not a nonsense name. While "Danny" itself may have no meaning, at least to you, it is part of a large network of associations. It's the usual nickname for "Daniel", which has a long and Biblical history. It's not a made-up name, like the one I suggested.
stevo
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From: Jorge Llambías <jjllambias@gmail.com>
Date: 2009/4/29
To: lojban-list@lojban.org
Both "Wahoola" and "Wallahoo" are attested names (and both contain the
problematic "la", BTW) but I couldn't find any hits for the compound
form Wahoolawallahoo. :)
mu'o mi'e xorxes
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From: Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 13:19
To: lojban-list@lojban.org
Morpheme, the naming conventions on Gaia from the Foundation series is mentioned as an aside in the books. I don't think that people's names consisted of literal words like "mayorhumanitariangreatorator" but rather like "daniel" has meaning associated with it.
Or in lojban terms, maybe one would use the rafsi of different words that they associate with to make one enormous lujvo like construct (but in cmene form). So from my earlier example, skamilojbozoigo becomes skajbozoigos, or skaj in day to day use. I would guess most names would be much longer as most people don't really identify with only a few interests.
Kind of reminds me of geek code.
- Luke Bergen----------
From: John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 13:23
To: lojban-list@lojban.org
I thought it was a-sson etc; i.e., the first name, not the second (which is presumably already a sson or dottir)
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From: Danny Piccirillo <danny.piccirillo@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 13:28
To: lojban-list@lojban.org
Yes, but to me and most people it's just another name that has no meaning. I don't know any off the top of my head, but there are many names with no meaning. Although my name has a history, it's meaning has mostly been lost, so i put it in the same category as the many completely meaningless names out there. So, do they all qualify as nonsense?
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From: Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 13:36
To: lojban-list@lojban.org
One thing I've thought about in the past, if you know a bunch of people with the same name as you who have certain personality traits, are you more likely to pick up those traits yourself? For instance, "I've never met a ____ who wasn't a jerk" is a phrase I've heard some times. Do you think there could be any truth to that?
- Luke Bergen----------
From: <MorphemeAddict@wmconnect.com>
Date: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 13:38
To: lojban-list@lojban.org
I'd still say no, since it's not a made-up name. It's a common name, part of the language in fact, not a nonce-name.
stevo (not "Morpheme")
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From: <tsofian@aol.com>
Date: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 16:44
To: lojban-list@lojban.org
Here is what I'm using in my science fiction setting. This presupposes that entirely logical aliens harvested humans for use as biological robots, so having a defined starting point and a limited sample makes life easier
The humans were chosen and defined in terms of forty genetic markers. these genetic markers were assigned (by the aliens) a hierarchy of desirability. The first generation had only a single last name, that of their genetic marker. The second generation had a hypehentated genius name, with the first word being the deignation for the highest rated marker between the parents and the second being the lower rated. Children are called by their sex and birth order, being something like first male offspring of gene marker 15 and gene marker 33. The next generation would take the highest marker from each parent and so on.
Once the children become adults they will acquire a name based on achievement
Just my two bits.
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From: Danny Piccirillo <danny.piccirillo@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 16:55
To: lojban-list@lojban.org
Mmm, now what about a practical approach we can use in today's world? Names have to stay the same (or at least can't be easily changed), so what should i do until humanity adopts a more ideal naming system... xD
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From: John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 18:43
To: lojban-list@lojban.org
Well, what do you want names to do -- beyond contextual uniqueness? Be pretty? then pick something pretty. Be informative? Pick something that gives the information you consider important. And perhaps different things for different contexts. There is, I suppose, such a thing as a general purpose name -- something like the function of our historically given name -- which would be a starting point (mine is foor almost all of my other names) and you can get on from that. Your given name seems a good starting point, especially if you go back into its history (something about God - El - and whatever Piccirillo comes from [triangulating translations come up with wanderer, cockscomb and tor, but nevermind]). And you don't have to be limited by
that, of course.
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From: Adam Raizen <adam.raizen@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 20:21
To: lojban-list@lojban.org
Names also often serve as a source of cultural identification for the
bearer. Some immigrants to Israel Hebraize their name, Muslim converts
often choose Arabic names, naturalized Icelandic citizens choose
Icelandic names, etc.
--
Adam Raizen <adam.raizen@gmail.com>
Got sente?
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From: <MorphemeAddict@wmconnect.com>
Date: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 22:34
To: lojban-list@lojban.org
You could have several different names (not necessarily related to one another) that you use under different circumstances. I have about five different names, although mine are all related (at least so far).
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From: Daniel E. Renfer <duck@kronkltd.net>
Date: Fri, May 1, 2009 at 14:46
To: lojban-list@lojban.org
I wish I knew the name of the book, but one time, years ago, they were
talking about this book on the radio that compiled a list of names and
the common associations with those names. (ie. Dexter tends to be nerdy,
etc.)
The problem with unique names is it makes it impossible to find those
little personalized lisence plates or pencils for your kids. (my
children are named Tobias and Random)
Also, WRT the whole family line issue, my dad was adopted. So while I
still feel a connection to my last name, I am not really, technically a
Renfer.
- Daniel E. Renfer
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From: Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, May 5, 2009 at 16:49
To: lojban-list@lojban.org
You might be thinking of "The Baby Name Survey Book" by Bruce Lansky, (and its sequel, "The New Baby Name Survey" but then again, you might not. (Interestingly enough, there is a website,
about-name.com, that is doing the same thing).
I know how you feel, My kids also have unusual names, at least in the generalized society, and even though they're not out of place in my community (Orthodox Judaism), at least one (Rashi) has an unusual name even for there....
--gejyspa
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From: David290 <lojban-out@lojban.org>
Date: Sun, Oct 11, 2009 at 04:46
To: lojban-list@lojban.org
Re: Logical Naming Conventions
Author: David290
Well, my Chinese name 达林,I born with, is meaningful, meaning "arrival to the forest". So, my lojbanic name is "klama'u ricfoi".
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From: Oren <get.oren@gmail.com>
Date: 2009/10/11
To: lojban-list@lojban.org
my chinese name 白松, the surname carries no meaning and the name means "pine tree," also my latin-alphabet name Oren is hebrew for "pine tree," so mi'e .ku'us.
--
白松 - Oren Robinson
+86-15810101944
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From: Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 09:38
To: lojban-list@lojban.org
How do you get "arrival" out of "klama'u"? That means a "going
type of mature thing". (klama makcu).
--gejyspa
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From: Oren <get.oren@gmail.com>
Date: 2009/10/12
To: lojban-list@lojban.org
It's poetic; the maturation, the fruition of a "klama" is an arrival, by virtue of it's default sumti!
Sent from Beijing, 11, China