Re: [lojban] Re: Cake, Pie or Ice Cream?

[And Rosta <and.rosta@gmail.com>]

John E Clifford, On 09/01/2011 22:41:
> Well, that depends on what you are out to do.  In particular, if the difference
> is forced by the nature of the notation but not by the facts on the ground,
> then, indeed, there is not a need to make the distinction.  If you have
> something else in mind, then there are always C-sets and all that they entail
> (most of it with little direct relevance to real life).  On the other hand,
> mathematics (though supposedly possible) is hard to do with L-sets.

Googling C-sets and L-sets (with or without adding "Lojban") turns up nothing plainly relevant, so I can't respond very intelligently. What I was trying to say is that in our ordinary conceptualization of the world we do conceive of collectivities (that lift pianos, surround things, disperse, weigh more than any of their members, etc.), and there's a difference between a collectivity whose three members are A,B,C and a collectivity whose two members are C and another collectivity whose two members are A,B. For example, if {A,B,C} disperse/diverge, they go in three separate directions, whereas if {{A,B},C} disperse/diverge, A and B might remain together and jointly diverge from C.

Hence, the need for disambiguable grouping (of 'sets' defined by listing their members) occurs with everyday conceptualization of the world and is not restricted to some arcane sort of set that nobody needs to talk about.

--And.

> ----- Original Message ----
> From: And Rosta<and.rosta@gmail.com>
> To: lojban@googlegroups.com
> Sent: Sun, January 9, 2011 3:01:51 PM
> Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Cake, Pie or Ice Cream?
>
> Jorge Llambías, On 09/01/2011 20:19:
> > On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 5:04 PM, John E Clifford<kali9putra@yahoo.com>   wrote:
> > > Happily, if the sets are L-sets (just the things mentioned), then the issue
> of
> > > how 'ce' groups is irrelevant, as it is clearly meant to be (I pass over teh
> > > objection to talking about L-sets, since that is irrelevant, too).
> >
> > You seem to be saying that we never talk about sets in the language
> > (only in the metalanguage). That's fine with me, we don't really need
> > sets. But if so, is there any difference between "ko'a ce ko'e" and
> > "ko'a jo'u ko'e"?
>
> Surely there is a need to distinguish {a, b, c} from {{a, b}, c} in ordinary
> language and thought, where "{}" is some kind of group with members.
>
> --And.

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