Re: [lojban] Re: Cake, Pie or Ice Cream?

[Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>]

  Can you explain exactly what L-sets and C-sets are? I don't get them.

          --gejyspa

On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 2:01 PM, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Why do we need to, C-set theory aside?  Most of the examples given seem to
> be cases where some items in a bunch also go by another name in a different
> context, but are still functioning as in this group in this case.  So we can
> say {a b} is in {a b c} but just now is not functioning as a separate item
> but as a part of the whole.  I have nothing against C-sets and (finally)
> know how to use them for the various purposes for which we want sets of some
> sort (or not, as xorxes would insist) in ordinary language, but these all
> turn out to be easier and more natural with L-sets (or plural reference).
>
> ________________________________
> From: Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com>
> To: lojban@googlegroups.com
> Sent: Mon, January 10, 2011 11:41:34 AM
> Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Cake, Pie or Ice Cream?
>
> If you aren't going to do it in the main body of the language, then mekso
> won't die completely, because we really do need a way to distinguish {a,b,c}
> and {{a,b},c}; in English it's "the set containing a, b, and c" and "the set
> containing the set containing a and b <ambiguous pause> and c", which is
> absolutely terrible.
>
> mu'o mi'e .latros.
>
> On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 5:41 PM, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> Well, that depends on what you are out to do.  In particular, if the
>> difference
>> is forced by the nature of the notation but not by the facts on the
>> ground,
>> then, indeed, there is not a need to make the distinction.  If you have
>> something else in mind, then there are always C-sets and all that they
>> entail
>> (most of it with little direct relevance to real life).  On the other
>> hand,
>> mathematics (though supposedly possible) is hard to do with L-sets.
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: And Rosta <and.rosta@gmail.com>
>> To: lojban@googlegroups.com
>> Sent: Sun, January 9, 2011 3:01:51 PM
>> Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Cake, Pie or Ice Cream?
>>
>> Jorge Llambías, On 09/01/2011 20:19:
>> > On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 5:04 PM, John E Clifford<kali9putra@yahoo.com>
>> >  wrote:
>> >> Happily, if the sets are L-sets (just the things mentioned), then the
>> >> issue
>> of
>> >> how 'ce' groups is irrelevant, as it is clearly meant to be (I pass
>> >> over teh
>> >> objection to talking about L-sets, since that is irrelevant, too).
>> >
>> > You seem to be saying that we never talk about sets in the language
>> > (only in the metalanguage). That's fine with me, we don't really need
>> > sets. But if so, is there any difference between "ko'a ce ko'e" and
>> > "ko'a jo'u ko'e"?
>>
>> Surely there is a need to distinguish {a, b, c} from {{a, b}, c} in
>> ordinary
>> language and thought, where "{}" is some kind of group with members.
>>
>> --And.
>>
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