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Re: [lojban] Re: Cake, Pie or Ice Cream?
pckipo.blogspot.com for a short, disorderly discussion. Any set theory book for C- sets. The Wikipedia on mereology is good on L-sets, though doesn't call them that. Someplace in the archives is an extended discussion of plural reference which is the xorxes' version.
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On Jan 10, 2011, at 13:06, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
Can you explain exactly what L-sets and C-sets are? I don't get them.
--gejyspa
On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 2:01 PM, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:
Why do we need to, C-set theory aside? Most of the examples given seem to
be cases where some items in a bunch also go by another name in a different
context, but are still functioning as in this group in this case. So we can
say {a b} is in {a b c} but just now is not functioning as a separate item
but as a part of the whole. I have nothing against C-sets and (finally)
know how to use them for the various purposes for which we want sets of some
sort (or not, as xorxes would insist) in ordinary language, but these all
turn out to be easier and more natural with L-sets (or plural reference).
________________________________
From: Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Mon, January 10, 2011 11:41:34 AM
Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Cake, Pie or Ice Cream?
If you aren't going to do it in the main body of the language, then mekso
won't die completely, because we really do need a way to distinguish {a,b,c}
and {{a,b},c}; in English it's "the set containing a, b, and c" and "the set
containing the set containing a and b <ambiguous pause> and c", which is
absolutely terrible.
mu'o mi'e .latros.
On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 5:41 PM, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
wrote:
Well, that depends on what you are out to do. In particular, if the
difference
is forced by the nature of the notation but not by the facts on the
ground,
then, indeed, there is not a need to make the distinction. If you have
something else in mind, then there are always C-sets and all that they
entail
(most of it with little direct relevance to real life). On the other
hand,
mathematics (though supposedly possible) is hard to do with L-sets.
----- Original Message ----
From: And Rosta <and.rosta@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sun, January 9, 2011 3:01:51 PM
Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Cake, Pie or Ice Cream?
Jorge Llambías, On 09/01/2011 20:19:
On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 5:04 PM, John E Clifford<kali9putra@yahoo.com>
wrote:
Happily, if the sets are L-sets (just the things mentioned), then the
issue
of
how 'ce' groups is irrelevant, as it is clearly meant to be (I pass
over teh
objection to talking about L-sets, since that is irrelevant, too).
You seem to be saying that we never talk about sets in the language
(only in the metalanguage). That's fine with me, we don't really need
sets. But if so, is there any difference between "ko'a ce ko'e" and
"ko'a jo'u ko'e"?
Surely there is a need to distinguish {a, b, c} from {{a, b}, c} in
ordinary
language and thought, where "{}" is some kind of group with members.
--And.
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