Re: [lojban] I'm sure I've missed it but, "ko" for "You and Me" ...

[Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>]

On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 4:48 AM, tijlan <jbotijlan@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 24 March 2011 01:56, .arpis. <rpglover64+jbobau@gmail.com> wrote:
>> {doi mi'o ko klama le xotli} - {doi} explicitly assigns {do} to be {mi'o},
>> so {ko} commands the speaker and the listener to go to the hotel; similarly
>> {ma'a} for the entire group. (gejyspa posted this before I finished my
>> reply)
>
> I'm not sure that {doi} *explicitly assigns* {do} to anything. {do}
> excludes all non-{do} KOhA3 except {ko},

  Please show me where that is written.  According to the CLL (7.2,
13.14) all vocatives (COI and DOI) assign do, except mi'e which
assigns mi (the only difference between DOI and COI is that DOI
doesn't have to pause before cmevla)  That being said, I am not in
disagreement that "doi mi'o ko klama le xotli" is fundamentally
different from "e'u mi'o klama le xotli" and that the latter is
usually what is meant by the English "let's go to the hotel".  The
former is more like a parent talking to a child -- "You, me, hotel,
now!"  It's unusual to command oneself, but it certainly can be done
-- Enough of that, gejyspa, You need to stop screwing around on mail
lists and go to work!.

    --gejyspa

> so it can't really be turned
> into or substitute for {mi'o}. {do} refers only to the listener, and
> {mi'o} refers to both the listener and the speaker; these cmavo are
> semantically distinct by definition. If a command or suggestion is
> intended for the listener *and* the speaker, more than {do} are to be
> involved in the first place. What's at stake is the indexicality not
> of {do} but of that which is commanded or suggested to be the agent of
> a particular action or event (e.g. going to the hotel).
>
> The fundamental linguistic element of a command or suggestion is "mood":
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammatical_mood
> In Lojban, this is most expressible through UI and COI. Lojban has
> this advantage in expressing a mood in a more grammatically distinct
> and isomorphic manner than in many other languages. The English
> sequence of words "you do this" can be indicative or interrogative or
> jussive / imperative or something else, depending on non-isomorphic
> elements such as intonation, punctuation, etc., whereas Lojban can
> lexically differentiate them with {ju'a}, {xu}, {a'o}, {e'i}, and so
> on.
>
> {ko} is an oddball -- a sumti charged with some mood. According to
> BPFK, it's "an imperative pro-sumti for "you," the person or people
> that the speaker is addressing":
> http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section%3A+Personal+Pro-sumti
> On top of being imperative more than suggestive in its function, {ko}
> by definition excludes non-{do}, so it doesn't appear useful in a
> less-than-imperative intended-for-you-and-me utterance such as "Let's
> go to the hotel". (For that, we can resort to the more clear-cut and
> thus arguably more Lojbanic options such as {e'u mi'o klama le
> xotli}.)
>
>
> On 24 March 2011 01:43, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
>> ko is not inherently singular, in the same way that English "you" isn't. (In
>> the old days, "you" was plural, and "thou" was singular, but "thou" fell out
>> of use.
>>
>> None of the pro-sumti are inherently singular or plural. do is "the
>> listener(s)", mi is "the speaker(s)", etc.
>
> True. What differentiates {do} from {mi'o}, for instance, isn't the
> number of entities but the combination of different sorts of entities.
> {do} excludes "the speaker (1st person)" & "others (3rd person)" and
> thus differs also from {mi'o}, {do'o}, etc.
>
>
> mu'o
>
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