Re: [lojban] SAE was lojban and PR

[John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>]

Errh.  The Wikipedia page for what, exactly?  That is, what is the list for? 
Surely not SAE, since many such languages lack properties here checked and have 
those left unchecked (I take 'x' as a "no").  Are the checks for Lojban?  And 
what do these things mean (especially "A, B, and C")?  Morphosyntactic 
alignment?  I just see the relevance here.  Look at Whorf.




----- Original Message ----
From: Pierre Abbat <phma@phma.optus.nu>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thu, October 27, 2011 8:47:36 PM
Subject: Re: [lojban] SAE was lojban and PR

On Thursday 27 October 2011 12:52:52 John E. Clifford wrote:
> SAE is a Whorfian term and has very little to do with the specifics of word
> class and paradigms.  It has more to do with the metaphysical view of the
> language.  SAE languages are based on things doing stuff and having
> properties.  Other languages are based on processes going on or masses
> dividing or kinds manifesting themselves.  The issue in which all the
> unfortunate weird stuff turns up is more or less an effort to see what sort
> of language Lojban is and to what extent it can mirror the other kinds.  As
> spoken first (or so) order logic, it is clearly SAE in its most
> Aristotelian form, some say it can be viewed as a mass/ kind language as
> well.

Could you give examples of sentences showing these other kinds of languages?

I found the Wikipedia page. Going down the lists:
1. Definite and indefinite articles ✓
2. relative clauses are postnominal but don't have inflected pronouns ×
3. periphrastic perfect: there are no participles ×
4. predicates to encode experiencers ✓
5. passive participle ×
6. anticausative verbs × I think, since the transitive is derived 
with "-gau, -ri'a, -zu'e"
7. dative external possessors ×
8. negative indefinite ✓ though it's two words
9. particle comparative × (there is "me'a" but it's not the usual)
10. equative adverbial ×
11. verb inflected for subject ×
12. differentiation between intensifier and reflexive ✓

Further features:
1. verb-initial yes/no ×
2. comparative inflection × it's a compound
3. A, B, and C ×
4. comitative and instrumental ×
5. second/two ×
6. no alienable/inalienable distinction ×
7. no clusivity distinction ×
8. no productive reduplication ✓
9. topic focus intonation word order × (focus can be expressed by word order, 
but topic is expressed by prenex)
10. SVO ✓
11. only one gerund ×
12. neither-nor ×
13. phrasal adverbs - not sure what, "still" is a single word
14. replacement of past by perfect ×

The third list: The first six items, which are all phonetic, all ✓. Morphology 
is both suffixing and prefixing and is not fusional at all. There is no 
morphosyntactic alignment.

Pierre

-- 
li ze te'a ci vu'u ci bi'e te'a mu du
li ci su'i ze te'a mu bi'e vu'u ci

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