Re: [lojban] semantic parser - tersmu-0.1rc1

["John E. Clifford" <kali9putra@yahoo.com>]

Sent from my iPad

On Dec 11, 2011, at 2:52 PM, Jorge Llambías <jjllambias@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sun, Dec 11, 2011 at 4:50 PM, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> 
>>  At the least, there should be a process of
>> converting FOL into Lojban that would justify the reverse reconstruction.
> 
> Converting FOL into Lojban is trivial.

Not obviously, since you are about to introduce expressions which are more remote from FOL and thus, even if arbitrary and conventional, subject to things like unintended consequences (omitted arguments, {zo'e}, and, I assume, all the descriptions are the currently interesting cases).
> 
> But in addition to all the expressions obtained from converting FOL
> into Lojban, Lojban has additional grammatical expressions (usually
> more compact) not obtained directly by conversion from FOL but rather
> from a set of arbitrary (but consistent) rules. These compact
> expressions are declared to be equivalent to some other expression
> obtained by direct conversion. This set of consistent but arbitrary
> rules are what this thread is about. They cannot be justified by any
> argument from logic because they do not arise out of anything to do
> with logic. The compact expressions are there just for convenience,
> not out of any logical necessity.
> 
> 
>>>> intermediate constructions which are not to be taken too
>>>> seriously (except that they usually are also sentences of Lojban) on the way
>>> to the final results.
>>> 
>>> Which intermediate construction is not to be taken too seriously? If
>>> there was such intermediate construction, the whole thing falls apart.
>>> The whole point of the rules is that there be no gaps in moving from
>>> the non-standard form to the standard one.
>> 
>> ?? "such intermediate construction" I suppose means "one that is not a Lojban
>> sentence".
> 
> I meant "one that is not to be taken seriously".

This seems to be the same thing in practice.
> 
>> Well, is there a guarantee that the rules will never lead to one on
>> the way to a correct interpretation?
> 
> Of course. They are, by construction, all equivalent in meaning.
> 
>> (1) ge su'o da zo'u ko'a da broda gi su'o da zo'u ko'e da broda
>> 
>> (2) su'o da zo'u ge ko'a da broda gi ko'e da broda
>> 
>> The only justification we
>> may add for the choice is which one makes the whole system nicer, and
>> in my view that means choosing (2) simply because I think it's better
>> to stick with left over right scope. What possible justification
>> beyond that are you looking for?
>> 
>> I assume you mean (1) here, since that is what your convention selects.
> 
> Yes, sorry.
> 
>>>> I am not sure I understand your objection to the traditional solution to
>>> donkey
>>>> sentences.  Do you know of cases where it just doesn't work?
>>> 
>>> Changing a narrow scope existential into a wide scope universal? And
>>> already mentioned cases where that doesn't work: "most farmers who own
>>> a donkey, beat it"
>> 
>> Sorry, why doesn't it work?  For all donkeys x, for most farmers y who own x, y
>> beats x.
> 
> Because that has a different meaning. Suppose there is one donkey that
> is not beaten by any of its owners. Your proposed expansion is
> obviously false, but the English "most farmers who own a donkey, beat
> it" could still be true, no?
> 
Thanks.  I've obviously been away from this too long, since I forgot the point of the original problem.

> mu'o mi'e xorxes
> 
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