Re: [lojban] Rafybri and 4 new rafsi. Suggestion for a new agglutinative style in Lojban

On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 6:47 PM, Jacob Errington <nictytan@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm pretty sure that the zo'u-construct I used at the beginning will parse,

It did not parse either time using jboski.

stevo

notwithstanding that I'm almost certain that I've seen it used before, by skilled lojbanists. However, you're right about the second one, that [cu] was from my initial idea of the sentence; removing it makes the sentence parse, and maintain the intended meaning.

Nothing in there is used purely for the sake of complexity: it's just the way I write in Lojban. The most complicated thing there is stuff like [CONNECTIVE BAI BO] and jai, but neither of those are really that complicated. Oh, and ad hoc lujvo that are 100% non-cilmo, like [kamseljmi] -> [ka se jimpe]. I do that for shortening, and to remember rafsi.

mu'o mi'e la tsani

On 25 April 2012 07:11, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:

Also, it seems to me- and granted I haven't seen much of your writing, so I could be wrong- that you're purposefully using very advanced grammatical constructs. I would suggest trimming the fat, as it were, considering I'm pretty sure gleki is still a nintadni. I consider myself a middle-level jbopre and I had trouble understanding you.

On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 5:01 AM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:

doi tsani do na drani pe'i loka pilno zo zo'u

On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 4:50 AM, Jacob Errington <nictytan@gmail.com> wrote:

i doi la gleki zo'u tu'e

i je'a se nandu lo nu jai galfi lo jbobau i mi tugni la djanatyn djons lo du'u su'o lo jbopre goi ko'a troci gi'eku'i iesa'e fliba

i la deple'u mlana .e la xorlo cu po'o zo'u snada gi'eki'ubo je'a ke jbobau sarcu

i ta'onai tu'a zo co .eja'ebo zoi raf col raf se smuni lo do seldji vau pe'i

i sa'e lu mi joi lo pampe'o cu simxu co kansa co zgana co nu tigni co pendo li'u mupli tu'a zo co

i si'a zo simcolkancolzgacolnuntigycolpe'o mupli ra'oi col

i ku'i lo lujvo pe zo col so'aroi clani dukse vau iepei

i lo lujvo pe secau tu'a cy. zi'e noi ke'a se mupli zo nunpedytigkezyzgakansi'u noi ke'a lujvo fo lo bi'unai clani tanru cu je'a zanmau

i ja'o lo tai lujvo cu jai frili fai lo kamseljmi ki'u lo du'u so'eroiku lo seltau cu srana lo za'umoi sumti tu'u

mu'o mi'e la tsani

On 25 April 2012 06:27, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:

doi gleki do na pamoi troci lonu xagzengau lo jbobau
to lu ko'a gasnu lonu ko'e zenba loka xamgu ko'i kei ko'o li'u smuni toi
.i so'a jbopre ti'u lo nintadni to mi cmima toi cu troci lo se go'i
.i da'aso'ada na snada
.i ro go'i cu te cusku lu ko pamoi nitcu lonu cilre lo jbobau gi'e remoi nitcu lonu jimpe
.i ca lonu la'edi'u mulno ku curmi lonu troci li'u
.i puti'u lonu nanca li pamu ku la xorlo .e la.dotsaid. se steci lonu snada

On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 3:35 AM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:

Thinking about it, the whole "counter-intuitive" thing is actually a really good reason against placing cnita1 in klama3 for nitkla. Making klama3, the origin, be cnita1, the thing below, logically means placing cnita2, the thing above, in klama3, the destination, making nitkla in case mean, in essence "to go upwards". The reason this is counter-intuitive is because it means using a word that means "down"- or at least a meaning associated, "under, below, etc."- to make a word that means "up". We have a word that means "up" in exactly the same way cnita means "down"- gapru- so it would make more sense to use that for a "go up" lujvo. {lu ko'a gapru ko'e li'u mintu soi lu ko'a se cnita ko'e li'u}

On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 3:15 AM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:

Personally, I think you're overestimating the difficulty. Most lujvo can be easily figured out without needing to "memorize" them, as long as you /have/ memorized the gismu, cmavo, and their rafsi, which you /have to do anyway/ to speak Lojban fluently.

I don't see how it is difficult to figure out, without previously learning the definition, that nitkla means "x1 goes down from high point x2 to low point x3 ...". I can see how variants could be what you conclude, as Latro showed, but you should at least be able to understand that "downwards" and "move" constitute the meaning of "nitkla", merely by knowing the meanings of cnita and klama, and also knowing the rafsi thereof.

Also, there's this really great strategy for finding out what a word you don't know means. It's actually an ancient technique, used since the first days of verbal communication: Ask the person that said it.

Lojban is a young language, with no native speakers (although Robin's trying to change the latter), so it's no surprise that most people have difficulties regarding concepts.

The only time I have trouble with a Lojban word, however, is when the meaning is counter-intuitive, that is, when what it means does not seem to fit in with what is used to make it, such as me'ispe. Looking at the word, without knowing the definition, you would think it has something to do with the concepts of "marriage" and "sister", and you may even reach the conclusion that it's talking about someone who is a sister because of a marriage. This makes sense.

me'ispe currently means "Brother-in-Law".

My line of attack for lujvo like the above isn't to try to memorize the meaning, or to come with some addition to the language that will make it more complicated while seeming to make it more simple (any addition is automatically an increase in complexity), but to /fix/ the /broken/ word.

On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 2:41 AM, gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:

My suggestion for rafybri is to eliminate the need to memorise thousands of words which makes Lojban dictionary as hard to memorise as native languages.

If you can say {klama lo cnita} instead of {nitkla} it's ok. If you feel {klama lo cnita} is too long to pronounce you might wanna use rafybri.

The meaning of lujvo is postulated. They need to be entered into dictionaries to be clearly understood by everyone.

The meaning of rafybri is not postulated. You don't have to add them to dictionaries.

Everyone can easily decompress them back to bridi. You don't have to memorise thousands of words.

In some cases, though, lujvo is the best solution (take names of plants and animals, for instance). But "to descend" is really not worth it.

On Wednesday, April 25, 2012 8:05:35 AM UTC+4, Latro wrote:

That's a bias in favor of klama2, which is malgli if it is considered to be inherent (it isn't malgli in an actual lujvo definition). It could just as easily be "below type-of-going" i.e. "going from below" i.e. "rising". This seems less obvious to an English speaker but that's only because of preposition omission; "going below" is "going to below" which is essentially symmetric with the case which favors klama3. There is a similar albeit less natural version for klama4, namely essentially "tunneling", in the physical sense.

On the general topic, I think making a substantive agglutinative system is probably going to wind up being futile in a language like this.

mu'o mi'e latros

On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 2:38 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:

On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 8:01 AM, gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:

At first I must say that I'm not a member of any language-developing committee (BPFK or anything).

And the following is just an idea how the flexibility of Lojban can be enriched.

Nobody is asked to use the following when writing or speaking real Lojban.

Everything here should be marked as exclusively experimental and (.a'o) as the source for further consideration.

None of the existing rules of Lojban (the baseline) is changed.

Rafybri

I always noticed how lujvo break the transparent logic of bridi.

Let's look at {nitkla} which means {klama lo cnita}.

Although it's much easier to learn {nitkla} rather then "descend" (in English they differ in sounding considerably)

nobody can guess that {nitkla} means "descend" and doesn't mean "go in a lower position under something" without getting the translation beforehand.

I disagree. I argue that it is actually rather easy to determine the meaning of nitkla.

Let us assume that nitkla is a lujvo formed from the tanru {cnita klama}, which may or may not be true. {cnita klama} is a "below type-of going", i.e.. "going below", i.e. "descending".

How is that difficult to figure out?

Although anybody is free to say "klama lo cnita" instead

it will lead to lengthier speech.

What I suggest is to glue bridi together into a new form of lujvo called "rafybri".

That's how it works.

1. First rule

4 new rafsi

zve <= be fe lo

zvi <= be fi lo

zvo <= be fo lo

zvu <= be fu lo

and

jve (fifth rafsi)

When composing rafybri you replace gismu with rafsi and "be fe lo" etc. with new rafsi of ZVE series.

2. cmavo attached to rafsi don't lead to the emergence of a new meaning. Therefore selpa'i is a synonym for "se prami" (actually the second rule is not a new rule at all).

Applying this rule we can dramatically compress the length of lojbanic jufra.

And if we replace cnita with dizlo in our example we can save even two syllables.

klama lo cnita = klama lo dizlo = kla+zve+dzi = klazvedzi

blanu je crino = blajveri'o. In this case I refer to {blajveri'o} as to a synonym of {blanu je crino} (blue-green). I suggest that no new meaning is added here.

In other words rafybri can be constructed from tanru only if the latter have logical operators

("pelnimre tricu" can't be compressed into rafybri).
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mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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mu'o mi'e .aionys.

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(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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