Re: [lojban] Scales vocabulary construction

[Felipe Gonçalves Assis <felipeg.assis@gmail.com>]

ki'esai xorxes

I guess {kaicmi} could then mean "x1 pertains to scale x2."?

I wonder if a scale can be described as anything more than an
arbitrary collection of
properties... E.g. Should a scale be always closed under conjuction?
Disjunction?
Scalar negation? Should such an algebraic characterization affect our lujvo?

mu'o
mi'e .asiz.

On 18 July 2012 20:03, Jorge Llambías <jjllambias@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 18, 2012 at 6:09 AM, Felipe Gonçalves Assis
> <felipeg.assis@gmail.com> wrote:
>> coi
>>
>> In what follows, scales are certain colections of properties (in the
>> sense of CLL 15.5).
>> Examples of scales are
>>
>>  1. colour properties, e.g. {lo ka blanu}
>>  2. direction relations, e.g. {lo ka gapru}
>>  3. animal/plant types, e.g. {lo ka mlatu}
>>  4. family relations, e.g. {lo ka mamta}
>>  5. compass directions, e.g. {lo ka berti}
>>  6. genders, e.g. {lo ka fetsi}
>
> Another one that came up recently is
>
> 7. position/stance/posture, e.g. "lo ka sanli"
>>
>> The scale of colours is part of the definition of {skari}, which
>> requires a colour as its x2.
>> Similarly, {farna} defines the scale of directions (according to one
>> interpretation).
>>
>> brivla for talking about a recognized scale is a relevant vocabulary
>> demand. Using
>> existent vocabulary, we can easily and precisely ask what colour an
>> object is, or about
>> the direction from one point to another. However, in order to talk
>> about family relations,
>> compass directions, or non-binary genders, we need some circumlocutions.
>>
>> Talk about these abstract scales is greatly simplified when we have a
>> brivla with a
>> definition like
>>   "x1 has property x2 of scale S." or
>>   "x1 and x2 are related by relation x3 of scale T.", etc.
>>
>> I ask if there are any general guidelines we could follow in coining
>> this kind of brivla,
>
> How about basing them on:
>
> cmikai: ko'a ckaji ko'e noi cmima ko'i
> cmiki'i: ko'a ckini ko'e ko'i noi cmima ko'o
>
>> particularly when the only practical description of the scale is a
>> list of examples.
>
> Yes, the difficult part is naming the scales, not making brivla that
> mean "x1 has property x2 of scale S" or "x1 and x2 are related by
> relation x3 of scale T."
>
>> This is peculiar because it means creating an abstract vocabulary from
>> a more concrete
>> base, which implies that no neat lojban definition is to be expected.
>> We can't rely on
>> fu'ivla in general because Lojbanistani should be free to come up with
>> their own unique
>> scales (like "gender independent family relations").
>>
>> One idea is to make lujvo like {rodjavbo'e}, where {broda} and {brode}
>> would be two
>> prototypical examples of the scale to be defined. You may take it as
>> coming from the
>> phrasing
>>   {ko'a ckaji lo ka broda .a lo ka brode .a lo simsa}
>> or even from
>>   {ko'a broda ja brode ja brodi ja brodo ja brodu}
>> where {{broda}, ..., {brodu}} would be the full (finite) scale.
>>
>> According to that idea, {xunjavbla} could mean "x1 has colour x2", {sunjavberti}
>> something like "The compass direction to x1 from x2 is x3" and {tubjavrirni}
>> "x1 is a relative of x2 by family relation x3".
>>
>> Since the literal disjunctions would hardly deserve a lujvo, I guess
>> we could use our
>> freedom to define a lujvo with a little more than its veljvo components.
>
> Ot how about:
>
> xuncmikai: ko'a ckaji ko'e noi cmima lo se cmima be lo ka xunre
>
> ti xuncmikai lo ka pelxu
>
> To make the scale more clear you may include more than one value:
>
> do nakfetcmikai ma
> What gender are you?
>
> do zutsa'icmikai ma
> In what position are you?
>
>
>> (The above examples are illustrative only. The ad-hoc {lazyki'i} is
>> certainly a better
>> option for family-relation, for example.)
>
> And we already have "skari" for "xuncmikai".
>
> mu'o mi'e xorxes
>
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