On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 12:57 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:On Tuesday, August 14, 2012 10:55:04 AM UTC+4, aionys wrote:On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 12:53 AM, Jonathan Jones <eye...@gmail.com> wrote:On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 12:44 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tuesday, August 14, 2012 10:37:32 AM UTC+4, aionys wrote:On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 12:10 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:
So please have a look at my suggestion once again.aionys was right, it's not our old {carna}. It's something new.Robin asked "Yes, but what about objects that don't have clear <face>. e.g. imagine a rotating rod".In this case we must define a plane in the middle of the axis perpendicular to the axis.Then we have line-of-sight above the plane spreading to the plane.In the image attached we can see that according to what the eye (marked with "line of sight") seesthe rod is rotating to the right.So in such gismu we need a place for direction of rotation filled with "zunle/pritu". If this placed is not filled then the gismu would mean "rotating in general".
Incorrect. Under no circumstances do we need a place for direction of rotation if we define one of the two only possible directions as the keyword.
For example, if we make the definition be "x1 is rotating counter-clockwise viewed from orientation x2 about rotational axis/axes (set if multiple) x3", than the gismu (I'm going to use "gutni") can mean all of the following:
gutni: counter-clockwise
to'e gutni / tolgutni : clockwise
no'e gutni : not rotating (neither clockwise nor counter-clockwise rotation is occurring)
na'e gutni : not counter-clockwise (either clockwise or no rotation is occurring.)
na'e tolgutni : not clockwise (either counter-clockwise or no rotation is occurring.)
All that is needed for the word is a default direction, which can be changed to the other with to'e and for reasons of historical inertia should be counter-clockwise, a place to identify the 'face' when it isn't obvious (x2 in the above), and the axis/axes about which the rotation happens if it isn't the typical axis.
No. Your suggestion is not universal. Lojban usually allows ambiguous _expression_It's not possible to say "rotating" without specifying in what direction it rotates.
Which is why you put the default direction in the keyword. Unless of course, you mean it IS possible.
You need one more case:"rotates either clockwise or counterclockwise"
{ti gutni jonai to'e gutni}
"This is rotating either clockwise or counter-clockwise."
Or even:
{ti carna}
"This is turning."Exactly. But Robin suggested making {carna} obsolete. Therefore, I'm suggesting a new gismu that would cover all those meanings including {ti carna}.
No, Robin suggested making Lojban have one word for "turn", and one for "rotate". This would mean making carna mean one of the two, and making a new word for the other.
In other words, going from:
carna : x1 turns/rotates/revolves around axis x2 in direction x3.
To:
carna : x1 turns from x2 to x3
gutni : x1 is rotating counter-clockwise viewed from orientation x2 about rotational axis/axes (set if multiple) x3
--To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/--This is what was discussed in the chat.To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msOn Saturday, August 11, 2012 12:45:34 PM UTC+4, Gleki Arxokuna wrote:--May be I missed something in this conversation but (lindar will confirm) I didn't want to join this discussion yesterday until I could figure out everything myself. I even said in chat "Think 100 times before suggesting any new gismu".Still la lindar posted eir message to the list and I had to reply to it.So let's get back to business.The scrutiny shows that {carna} has everything that we need.Here is my solution.1. Take a clock from the wall.2. Put it on the floor.3. Sit on top of the clock. Just in the middle of the clock! Be careful not to break something in the mechanism.4. Look at the hands (pointers) of the clock.5. See? They are moving to the right of your point in space! Every atom of the hand of the clock is moving to the right.6. Now stand up and put the clock to the wall.7. Wow! The hand is no longer moving to the right. It's moving clockwise!So {carna fi lo pritu} means "rotate clockwise".Now what is {se carna}?Here we have a minor problem.When you were sitting on the clock you were the upper part of the axis, namely the part sticking out of the front of the clock.By the word "front" I mean that part that has digits painted on it and hands moving.What is "front"? What is "face"?These are two-dimensional but one-side objects (like Möbius band or something).You can't look at my face from the other side. You will simply see the back of my head.This is what we need.{carna lo crane lo pritu}.May be the definition of {carna} is really not an ideal one but I no longer support any new gismu for "clockwise".It's better to clarify {carna} definition, may be change it to
x1 turns or rotates around from the viewpoint (reference frame) of x2 in direction x3This has also to do with the concept of the "line of sight".Humans have it and this is what "reference frame" usually refers to.We look forward and see the hands of the clock moving.Even if we are blind we have such body orientation (including mouth, nose, limbs etc) so that we are still oriented forward.What if we had eyes on our backs: {pritu} has also "frame of reference" place. Therefore, two ref-frames annihilate (sumti/sumti=1) and we are culturally neutral again.You might argue: what if spiders that have eyes on their limbs learnt Lojban? Would that be culturaly neutral?We must think about them too!The answer is pretty clear.If you have an eye on your leg please use reference frame and specify which of your multiple eyes is looking at the clock.
Still we have "line of sight" left. I think that every human or probably every animal has such feature. I can't imagine any creature without "lines-of-sensory-input". All sensory organs work that way. Therefore, I state that it's culturally neutral.I haven't read all the conversation. So may be somebody has already understood this.Thanks for your attention anyway.
On Saturday, August 11, 2012 10:29:28 AM UTC+4, aionys wrote:On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 9:58 PM, Jonathan Jones <eye...@gmail.com> wrote:No, that's not what I mean. You don't specify which direction the objects are rotating. The "direction" you're talking about is the reference point.On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 9:42 PM, Pierre Abbat <ph...@phma.optus.nu> wrote:On Friday 10 August 2012 16:02:46 Jonathan Jones wrote:The direction is from the clock, along its axis, into the wall, which
> On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 5:17 AM, Pierre Abbat <ph...@phma.optus.nu> wrote:
> > On Friday 10 August 2012 03:32:53 la .lindar. wrote:
> > > What sort of thing would you put in the x3 of carna that would seem
> >
> > valid.
> >
> > lo terdi cu carna lo jendu lo berti .i lo junla cu carna lo jendu lo
> > bitmu .i
> > lo xislu be lo karce cu carna lo jendu lo zunle be lo karce
> >
> > mu'omi'e .pier.
>
> Those examples don't work, because in each of them you give a reference
> point for the x3, and in none of them do you give a direction. (That said,
> if carna's definition was the one I talked ab out last night, all of them
> would be perfect examples.)
corresponds to a direction of rotation by the convention of holding the right
hand so that its thumb is along the axis and the other fingers curl in the
direction of rotation.
Okay, wait, I missed the "...corresponds to a direction of rotation...." the first time I read it. Still, your x3's only work if you follow that convention, which requires you to /know/ it in the first place. I don't know how known it is, but I'd certainly not heard of it before you mentioned it, which leads me to believe "very well" is not the answer.
It is a neat way to shove the reference point and direction of rotation together, even though it always means "counterclockwise".
--
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mu'o mi'e .aionys.
.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.
.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
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mu'o mi'e .aionys.
.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )