Re: [lojban] CLL 1.1/ CLL 2.0. What is your opinion in the current situation?

[selpa'i <seladwa@gmx.de>]

Am 18.11.2012 19:48, schrieb Robin Lee Powell:
> There are probably 20 people on this list with most or all of the
> requisite skills.  No idea which if them would take money for it;
> I've offered, and gotten no reply.

Is anyone currently working on it?

I can understand gleki's frustration, and I can also understand yours. I 
don't really understand how so many people just prefer to watch 
passively what happens. The BPFK has done a lot of great work already, 
it's a shame it completely ran out of steam.

I don't think a single person alone can get much done, and I also doubt 
that anyone would want a single person to make all their decisions for 
them, especially in a language as Lojban, where we still have a 
considerable amount of things that must be discussed before they can 
become official. Don't people want to have a say in it? If yes, then 
they must speak up, offer their help, get involved or else they must 
accept that they can't complain about any decisions that are being made 
without them.

What is the community's general opinion about the current state of 
affairs? Are people generally happy to wait and stay in this gray area 
between old and new Lojban?

We get lots of newbies on IRC and each one of them reminds us of the 
fact that we don't have a single up-do-date, official description of our 
language. We have to tell each time that they can learn from the CLL or 
Lojban for Beginners, but that there are several outdated things in 
those materials. Is it not in everyone's interest that people new to the 
language get welcomed by proper learning materials?

There are countless cases of dicussions, both on this list and on IRC 
about issues that some people believe are already solved but which 
others believe are unsettled. There is lots of mutual disagreement and 
even more confusion and obscurity because there is such a huge contrast 
between old and new cmavo definitions, for instance.

This is just a report of the current situation the way I experience it. 
Mainly, I'm confused about people's motivations.

I know that some years ago, some people agreed to make you (rlpowell) 
the Benevolent Dictator, but what were they thinking? Did they just want 
to free themselves of any responsibilities? A single person can in no 
way do all of this without getting overwhelmed, and it seems that is 
exactly what has happened.

What do people think about this now?

I'm not sure what the best solution is, or what step must be taken next. 
All I'm seeing is that we're stuck. In my opinion, we (and by "we" I 
mean everyone who wants to participate) should make sure that the 
docbook project gets finished as soon as possible and then we must 
immediately reactivate the BPFK.

If there are, as you say, 20 people on this list that could help with 
the docbook project, then those people are urged to speak up. We need 
you! If you haven't yet noticed, some of us are desperate enough to pay 
you for this job.

For what it's worth, gleki is talking about CLL2.0 because he's doubting 
that there will ever be a completed CLL1.1 at this rate and he considers 
the CLL1.1 relatively useless because it would still be outdated, which 
is true, of course. xorlo and dotside are by far not the only changes.

He and I were merely wondering how to move Lojban forward. One idea was 
to give up on CLL1.1 and get straight to the actual CLL2.0 that 
incorporates *every* change, not just xorlo and dotside. I told him that 
this is not an easy thing to do because we must discuss these changes 
together as a community, no single person has the right to make changes 
without the approval of at least some notable Lojbanists.

When I told you about this idea some time ago, you made it very clear to 
me that it would be a terrible idea to start already so I did nothing 
about it. The only way for this to be a useful idea is to have enough 
people of the old BPFK team coming together and finishing off the 
remaining issues (of which there are of course quite a few). Then, to 
create the actual CLL, all we need to do is get the old CLL on a wiki 
and make changes to it accordingly. Everyone who understands what 
they're doing can help at that point. Then once all the changes have 
been worked in, a team will read over everything and double and triple 
check. And probably some final dicussions will ensue, but the goal will 
be near by then. That's my vision anyway.

I've probably written enough now; those are my 
spontaneously-written-down but for-some-time-had thoughts, no more and 
no less. If anyone has anything useful to say, please do so.

mu'o mi'e la selpa'i

--
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