coi,
I've been
reading the BPFK section about gismu issues, but I've got a lot of
questions about gismu definitions for which I didn't find any good
answers on this page. For example:
”What is
real?” isn't exactly a question for the language to answer, but
since I'm studying philosophy I've been concerned with what the words {zasti}, {fatci}, {da},
{xanri} and others refer to precisely. (Sorry for long winded post)
I
interpret {zasti} to be a very relative concept (and {fatci} to be an
extremely anti-relativistic concept). {zasti} is about what the
speaker (or some other x2) mean by ”exists/is real/actual/reality”
under some given metaphysics x3. This could be a lot of different
things, according to Wikipedia:
1) (exist)
something ”in the world one is aware or conscious of through one's
senses”
and that persists independently in one's absence”.
2) (exist)
”everything that 'is', or more simply, everything”
3) (exist)
”everything that most people believe in”
4) (real)
”the state of things as they actually exist, rather than as they
may appear or might be imagined.”
5) (real)
”wider definition, reality includes everything that is and has
been, whether or not it is observable or comprehensible”
6) (real)
”often restricted solely to that which has physical existence or
has a direct basis in it in the way that thoughts do in the brain.”
7) (real)
”often contrasted with what is imaginary, delusional, (only) in the
mind, dreams, what is abstract, what is false, or what is fictional.
The truth refers to what is real, while falsity refers to what is
not. Fictions are considered not real.”
8) (fact)
”something that has really occurred or is actually the case ”
9) (fact)
”Facts may be understood as that which makes a true sentence true.
Facts may also be understood as those things to which a true sentence
refers.”
10)
(absolute) ”unconditional reality which transcends limited,
conditional, everyday existence”
12)
(absolute) “In East Asia, the concept of the Tao, and in
South Asia, the concept of Nirvana is synonymous in description to
the attributes of the Absolute as used in the West.”
11)
(being) ”an extremely broad concept encompassing subjective and
objective features of reality and existence”
So when do
we use {zasti} and when do we use {fatci}?
Could you
please look at my examples below, and see if you think they are
right? And please, don't get stuck in some philosophical discussion,
but just correct me if my semantic and grammar seems to be wrong.
lo pa
sance be lo pa tricu poi farlu cu zasti mi va'o je va'onai lo nu mi
tirna sy [def 1]
roda cu
zasti [def 2]
zasti zo'u
ro me lo se krici be loi so'e prenu [def 3]
simlu fa
roda poi bartu lo menli po'e mi zi'e poi dacti ja menli ku'o zasti
ije ku'i mi na ka'enai djuno le du'u xukau la'edi'u cu ca'a zasti
ijenai mi djuno le du'u xukau la'edi'u cu fatci [def 4]
se'o lo
li'i sanji senva pe mi cu zmadu ro lo li'i cikna lo ka zasti fi la
gnosis .i xu cu'u do la'edi'u na fatci paunai
pe'i lo pa
gusta poi bazu se zbasu pu'i lo nu fanmo lo bu'u munje cu zasti va'o
ca ri cu jetnu .i lo xanri be la'edi'u cu ca ku'i zasti .i xu ku'i
go'e cu fatci [def 5 och 6]
su'o lo
orko zasti la légolas lo cfika pe fi'i la tólki,en .i ku'i xu lo
go'i cu na na'e xanri zasti [def 7]
ma xe
fanva zo'oi la nirvanas fe la lojban .i xu la'edi'u drani se danfu cu
lu lo ka fatci li'u .a lu lo za'i fatci li'u .a lu loi roda fatci
xu loi ka
prami cu zasti na'ebo lo sucta noi .i xu loi ka prami cu fatci .i
va'i xu loi ka prami cu me da
I don't
know if I have been able to show any inconsistencies, but my
suggestion is to put {fatci} and {zasti} on the “BPFK: gismu
issues”.
Proposal:
* add “/is
a being” in the definition for {zasti}, and add “be” as a
keyword and “being” as a placeword (x1).
*
delete “x1
is physical (one sense)” in the notes for {zasti}. For some people
(like me), non-physical things are possible to exist.
* add ”Exists
physically/is real (one sense) (=
dairza'i). Is real/non-fictional
(=nalfi'aza'i). Is realistic (one sense) (=nalfi'azatmlu)” in
the notes for {zasti}.
*
In my opinion, the words ”in the absolute” in the definition for
{fatci} signals that {fatci} shouldn't be used lightly in everyday
contexts, but rather a word used in philosophical and religious
discussions and such. Perhaps {jetfau}, or just x1 of jetnu, should
be a more common word for fact?
mu'omi'e
jongausib
PS:
One last thing, what do you think is the appropriate lujvo for ontology?
{zatske}
or {facyske}, or perhaps {terzatske}?
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