On Thursday, December 27, 2012 9:24:51 PM UTC+4, .arpis. wrote:I may be unusual in this respect, but I would not have learned lojban if the CLL did not exist, for two reasons: first, I actually used it as learning material, since grammar interests me more than vocabulary; second, part of the appeal of lojban is its thorough documentation (in the same sense as is use to talk about programming languages or libraries).
Level 2 (Waves 2.0) don't exist now. Therefore we don't have any other options now. Level 3 doesn't exist neither.I propose something something that is better.pe'i reading jbo-CLL is better than english-CLL.On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 11:57 AM, MorphemeAddict <lyt...@gmail.com> wrote:
If CLL were only and entirely in Lojban, almost nobody would (or even could) use it.stevoOn Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 11:01 AM, Remo Dentato <rden...@gmail.com> wrote:
It is a fact that CLL needs to be updated but call it "gramatically incorrect" is just a false statement. I really doubt there's much money coming out from selling it, so asking "where the money goes" seems rather pointless to me.
To me CLL has to stay (and be update) as a reference, it's not a tool for teaching the language. A 2.0 version should switch to xorlo (of course), use the PEG grammar rahter than the YACC version. Possibly get rid of mekso (or just deprecate it).
That said, I'm all in favour of more teaching material, and I agree that the most important goal is to spread the language. The point is that I think we should use CLL as a starting point, there's no value in rejecting it.
About English, I think that whatever gets created has to be done in English first so that most of the other lojbanists can benefit from it and, eventually, translate it in their own language. I'll probably never complete my comics but if I ever do, I know it has to be in English first, so to reach the largest possible audience. After that I'll translate it into Italian and I would love if others would translate it into their language.
remod.On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 2:23 PM, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:
1. The CLL is a tool to raise money in Lojbanistan. Yet even CLL 1.1 will be grammatically incorrect. What is the reason to raise money from something broken? Present something perfect and the book will become a bestseller.2. The CLL is useless pretty much. It doesn't teach people language.3. The CLL is written in English and is very long. Translating to other languages is tiresome and the current github format doesn't allow synchronous updates to other languages.If you love english it's your choice. All languages are equal to me. Except lojban. And I don't have any special love for English.Now why do we need the CLL? To provide the most detailed description for experienced users? Well, that's a good idea. But why using English here?Here is my proposal.1. Present a short dictionary with definitions readable by humans. Just a short pdf file without any search capabilities will do. This is a task that is very easy to complete.2. Update and develop the Waves 2.0 (from la klaku's original lessons). The goal is that people that use only these Waves and a dictionary can start speaking Lojban and reach fluency. The second goal is that Waves must be as short and comprehensive at the same time as possible.
3. jbo-CLL.When the person successfully completes the previous item ey can move to this level. This book will give the most detailed and contemporary description of the language that a fluent speaker is able to read and understand. It's written in simple lojban but describes complicated issues.Consequences.1. translating the Waves to other languages is easier cuz they are short and written in a simple language.2. No need (and pretty useless) to translate jbo-CLL.Some may say that CLL 1.1 is very important (and thus they implicitly advertise English, not Lojban). I don't understand where the money obtained from selling the books go to (to advertising lojban?). It's the perfect design, not any advertisements that can make Lojban popular.Money provide nothing. Human desire provide everything.If 10 000 people around the world find lojban awesome and reach fluency all most important goals are complete.That's the plan how we can make Lojban much more popular, learnable and well-known around the world, not just among a group of geeks who can speak English.P.S. Recently I've discovered that much stuff on lernu.net (a web site for Esperanto learners) has much information written exclusively in Esperanto, not even in English.--To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
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mu'o mi'e .arpis.