Re: [lojban] Secondary meaning of {cevni}

On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 1:22 PM, Alex Rozenshteyn <rpglover64@gmail.com> wrote:

Well, it just means that if I wanted to talk about a god who existed whether or not ey was worshipped I'd need to use a zi'evla or {cevni be zi'o}. A priest might call the Christian god {lo cevni be zi'o bei roda}.

Is there a such thing as a god which does not have worshipers? Granted, there are gods which do have worshipers /now/, but they did at one point, and I know of no gods that have never, at any time, had any worshipers at all.

Even if you don't like philosophy, this is still a linguistic issue. In English, the Goa'uld are not gods, even though they are worshiped as gods; in lojban (assuming your definition as canonical, which makes sense) they are gods because they are worshiped as such.*

*... to the people who worship them.

On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 12:41 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
Meh. I don't have any truck with philosophers in general.
On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 9:18 AM, Alex Rozenshteyn <rpglover64@gmail.com> wrote:
Seems like this would interact nicely with the setting of American Gods, where {lo cevni be noda} are literally dying mostly because {noda ra cevni}.

I think some theist philosophers would disagree with your definition, though; it's, in a sense, very anthropocentric; {pu ji'a sai lo nu zasti lo remna ku la .jegvon. ze'e ca cevni fi ro da}
On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 5:32 AM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 9:42 PM, Alex Rozenshteyn <rpglover64@gmail.com> wrote:

So it seems like your notion of {cevni} focuses more centrally on worship and dominion than on divinity.

No, it focus entirely on status. Their servants thought they were gods, we know they aren't. If someone think that X is god, then to that person, {da cevni}. If someone else does not think X is a god, or alternatively /knows/ that X isn't, hen to /that/ person, {da na cevni}.
On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 11:20 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 8:24 PM, .arpis. <rpglover64+jbobau@gmail.com> wrote:

Which is why I say misleading and not incorrect.

Also, {la'oi Goa'uld cevni xu} by your definition (ignore if you haven't seen Stargate SG-1)?

{.i go'i jenai go'i .i na cevni mi to fangypre po'o toi .i cevni lo gy. remna selfu}
Yes and no. Not gods to me (just aliens), but gods to their human servants.
On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 9:17 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 7:00 PM, .arpis. <rpglover64+jbobau@gmail.com> wrote:
Then I believe that the jbovlaste definition of {cevni} is misleading:
  Definition: x1 is a/the god/deity of people(s)/religion x2 with dominion
       over x3 [sphere]; x1 is divine.
note the secondary definition. I would consider angels to be divine.
Well, then you're using a different sense of the word "divine" than jbovlaste is, because the sense of "divine" in the English definition of {cevni} is "(of or pertaining to a god): deific, godlike, godly", whereas you seem to be meaning "(eternal, holy): hallowed, holy, sacred".

On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 8:38 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:

Even demons, and if you stretch the meaning /really/ far, djinn.

On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 6:38 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 1:28 PM, .arpis. <rpglover64+jbobau@gmail.com> wrote:

xu se cumki smuni lo ka ce'u ge angeli gi cevni

{cevni} can refer to many different things, but not angels. Gods, goddesses, demi-god(esse)s, oni, and so on and so forth.

But not angels. Angels are not gods, they aren't even god-like. Except for maybe the archangels, they're barely above humans, and in many ways are lower on the totem pole (like the complete lack of free will, emotion, or creativity, for example).

--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
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--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

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mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
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mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
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