Re: [lojban] strange behaviour of {cortu}

On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 9:52 AM, la gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:

On Friday, February 8, 2013 5:46:46 PM UTC+3, aionys wrote:
On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 7:32 AM, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Friday, February 8, 2013 5:26:19 PM UTC+3, .asiz. wrote:
What is exactly the problem with {mi cortu lo bekpi}?

that bekpi2 is not filled.

Yes it is. Context is everything. Since {lo bekpi} is {lo se cortu}, it must be {lo berti be lo cortu}.

I know that context is everything. I have no doubts that everything can be expressed in Lojban even with such a flaw in design. After all, English has the same flaw and two solutions similar to my first two solutions.

1. My back hurts. ~= lo bekpi be mi cu cortu
2. I have a pain in [my] back ~= mi cortu lo bekpi

Still I think it's a flaw in design. But I don't see how it can be overcome even outside Lojbanic grammar.

What is the flaw that you're referring to? How are these two sentences examples of it?

stevo

The only way it could be a back belonging to an individual /other/ than {lo cortu} is if that individual is an empath, and even then it wouldn't be {ko'a cortu lo bekpi be ko'e}, but {ko'a lifri lonu ko'e cortu lo bekpi}.

On 8 February 2013 04:21, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Friday, February 8, 2013 10:48:26 AM UTC+4, Pierre Abbat wrote:
>>
>> On Thursday, February 07, 2013 21:18:13 la gleki wrote:
>> > Many are speaking these days about internal place structure of brivla
>> > (relations between djuno2 and djuno3 is one example) which has been
>> > probably inspired by gua\spi.
>> >
>> > I just found another example, a little more interesting.
>> >
>> > {cortu} x1 hurts/feels pain/hurt at locus x2.
>> >
>> > What this brivla should really look like is
>> > {ko'a cortu lo broda be vo'a}
>> > e.g.
>> > {mi cortu lo stedu be mi}
>> > {mi cortu lo tuple be mi}
>> >
>> > But if we remove one of {mi} in any example this won't lead to any
>> > ambiguity. Indeed, where can i feel pain if not in some part of me?
>> > Of course such technologies as described in Avatar film might raise this
>> > question again but even then the avatar controlled by you would be a
>> > part
>> > of your double body.
>>
>> This is called a twiddler, as "mi cortu lo birka be do" is nonsensical in
>> the
>> same way that "I twiddle your thumbs" is. Similarly:
>> .i mi darxi do lo birka be fo'a lo trixe be ko'a
>> .i mi sanli lo loldi lo jamfu be do
>> See http://kith.org/logos/words/lower/t.html .
>
>
> Thanks for the link. The "problem" appeared when i tried to translate the
> following sentence from Tatoeba.
>
> "My back hurts."
>
> If we assume that back is {bekpi} (cuz Robin needed a gismu for it)
> then we have three options.
>
> 1. mi cortu lo bekpi
> 2. cortu lo bekpi be mi
> 3. mi cortu lo bekpi be mi
>
> The third solution is verbose and therefore doesn't reflect relations
> between sumti in a nice way.
> I guess Lojban is just unable to express this in a more concise way.
> May be
> 4. bekpi je selcortu mi ?
>
> I wish I could bind {bekpi} and {selcortu} with {du} but I can't.
>
>
>>
>> Pierre
>> --
>> I believe in Yellow when I'm in Sweden and in Black when I'm in Wales.
>>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "lojban" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>
>

On 8 February 2013 04:21, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Friday, February 8, 2013 10:48:26 AM UTC+4, Pierre Abbat wrote:
>>
>> On Thursday, February 07, 2013 21:18:13 la gleki wrote:
>> > Many are speaking these days about internal place structure of brivla
>> > (relations between djuno2 and djuno3 is one example) which has been
>> > probably inspired by gua\spi.
>> >
>> > I just found another example, a little more interesting.
>> >
>> > {cortu} x1 hurts/feels pain/hurt at locus x2.
>> >
>> > What this brivla should really look like is
>> > {ko'a cortu lo broda be vo'a}
>> > e.g.
>> > {mi cortu lo stedu be mi}
>> > {mi cortu lo tuple be mi}
>> >
>> > But if we remove one of {mi} in any example this won't lead to any
>> > ambiguity. Indeed, where can i feel pain if not in some part of me?
>> > Of course such technologies as described in Avatar film might raise this
>> > question again but even then the avatar controlled by you would be a
>> > part
>> > of your double body.
>>
>> This is called a twiddler, as "mi cortu lo birka be do" is nonsensical in
>> the
>> same way that "I twiddle your thumbs" is. Similarly:
>> .i mi darxi do lo birka be fo'a lo trixe be ko'a
>> .i mi sanli lo loldi lo jamfu be do
>> See http://kith.org/logos/words/lower/t.html .
>
>
> Thanks for the link. The "problem" appeared when i tried to translate the
> following sentence from Tatoeba.
>
> "My back hurts."
>
> If we assume that back is {bekpi} (cuz Robin needed a gismu for it)
> then we have three options.
>
> 1. mi cortu lo bekpi
> 2. cortu lo bekpi be mi
> 3. mi cortu lo bekpi be mi
>
> The third solution is verbose and therefore doesn't reflect relations
> between sumti in a nice way.
> I guess Lojban is just unable to express this in a more concise way.
> May be
> 4. bekpi je selcortu mi ?
>
> I wish I could bind {bekpi} and {selcortu} with {du} but I can't.
>
>
>>
>> Pierre
>> --
>> I believe in Yellow when I'm in Sweden and in Black when I'm in Wales.
>>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "lojban" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>
>

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.