Re: [lojban] 5 classes of sumti in Lojban and about a new word for "grammatical abstraction"

On 19 April 2013 05:25, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thursday, April 18, 2013 11:20:10 PM UTC+4, tsani wrote:

for historical record: this 5-way distinction was first heard by me from tsani. it's not mine. mine is lo si'o apstrake.

The thing about selsku is that some text cannot be represented indirectly, e.g. zo quotes of non-selbri, such as {zo ui}.

This raises a question. We frequently say we pilno words. Is this usage correct? If we let pilno3 be a function involving pilno2, then the type of pilno2 comes from that selbri and we're safe. Otherwise, there is type opaqueness in pipno2.

pilno2, not pipno2 (u'i, for a moment i thought pipno2 existed! i even tried to guess what it could mean)

Haha, I wrote that last response on my iPod, and for some reason, it wants pipno instead of pilno.

wait, your ipod understands lojban????? e'o do ciksi gije skicu

I guess this one slipped through.

{.i mi pilno zo coi .i mi pilno lo plise .imi citka lo selpli}

well, now im really not sure if apstrake/naly'apstrake distinction is worth considering. Definitely quotations can be both.

It's not that quotations can be both. It's simply that they form a grammatical class to themselves, distinct from any other. Text is abstract in that it doesn't have physical representations in our world. It's a construct of the mind and without something to interpret what's on the paper or the screen, it's just a very regular-looking picture. On the other hand, text is far more concrete than a bridi or event, in the sense that it isn't bounded in time or space or have any other, more complicated interactions with other grammatical constructs.

That's why I don't like your separation into apstrake/naly'apstrake; it isn't worthwhile.

Somethings can be construed as both, and the distinction you're trying to make doesn't advance our understanding of Lojban. On the other hand, classifying sumti into five (or six) classes is more worthwhile, because that distinction is more meaningful. You can put dacti in namcu places, and you can't put bridi in selsku places.

More directed at latro'a: is it sensible to roll together bridi and fancu, in the sense that bridi are simply parameterless fancu? It reduces the number of classes to five, and when beta-reducing, it's what happens usually. (Sometimes the beta-reduction leads to a nu... Maybe we should think about that some more.)

pardon my ignorance but arent {ni} and {ka} derived from klani and ckaji?

.i mi'e la tsani mu'o

On Apr 17, 2013, at 20:45, Ian Johnson <blindb...@gmail.com> wrote:

Technically you are missing zilkai/selbri as well as whatever we want to call ni abstractors (which are also functions), both of which are in the apstrake category naturally. That said, interesting proposal, but I'm uncertain that selsku is in the same category as the rest. It's subtle because of the {se du'u} indirect discourse trick, but selsku seem to be by themselves to me.

mi'e la latro'a mu'o

On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 11:05 AM, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:

apstrake x1 is a grammatical abstraction of type x2

All lojban constructs can be divided either to

{apstrake}: {bridi}, {fasnu}, {selsku}
or {naly'apstrake}: {namcu}, {dacti}.

Unfortunately JVS doesnt like {apstrake}. Alternatives are {astrato} (from Italian) or tcosiango {from Mandarin chou1xiang4}.

{sucta} has been misused for this concept.

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