On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 12:58 AM, la arxokuna <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:On Sunday, June 16, 2013 10:38:21 AM UTC+4, aionys wrote:On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 11:11 PM, la arxokuna <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:
First let me show an extract from the loglan dictionary.mio (p) we/us/ourselves, in the "I/me and others independently" sense, the 1st 3rd person multiple variable. Equivalent to 'mi, e da'. Cf. mu/mo for the "you and I/me" sense of we/us, and muu/muo for the "you and I and others" sense of we/us.mu (p) we/us/ourselves, in the "you and I/me jointly" sense, the 1st 2nd person set variable. Equivalent to 'mi ze tu'. Cf. mo for the "you and I/me independently" sense of we/us, miu/mio for the "I and others" sense of we/us, and muu/muo for the "you and I and others" sense of we/us.miu (p) we/us/ourselves, in the "I/me and others jointly" sense, the 1st 3rd person set variable. Equivalent to 'mi ze da'. Cf. mu/mo for the "you and I/me" sense of we/us, and muu/muo for the "you and I and others" sense of we/us.mo (p) we/us/ourselves, in the "you and I/me independently" sense, the 1st 2nd person multiple variable. Equivalent to 'mi, e tu'. Cf. mu for the "you and I/me jointly" sense of we/us, miu/mio for the "I and others" sense of we/us, and muu/muo for the "you and I and others" sense of we/us.What one might notice first is that there is no equivalent to "mio/miu" which corresponds to English "we"."we" is defined in Wiktionary as "The speakers/writers, or the speaker/writer and at least one other person." so the meaning is pretty clear.
Yeah. That's {mi}.No {mi = le cusku be dei}"we" = {da poi na'ei du mi gi'e prenu zo'u mi .e da}
That doesn't parse.
The meaning of English "we" is one of {mi}, {mi'a}, {mi'o}, or {ma'a} depending on context. The fact that English speakers have trouble distinguishing between the sharper lines on Lojban's "pronouns" doesn't matter, and attempting to change Lojban because of that is malgli.
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There are many cases in which Lojban is more exact than English. This is just one of them. This topic is a non-issue.However, the CLL says "English-speakers often suffer because they cannot easily distinguish “mi'o” from “mi'a”" which is indeed true. I don't understand why Lojban doesn't have "we" in the sense English, Chinese, Russian, Arabic, Hindi and Spanish have it (although i suggested mi'ai a few days ago).Now to the main issue. Even if we look at the remaining "mu/mo" we'll see that Lojban has only one of them.The CLL says (regarding KOhA3)"All of these pro-sumti represent masses. For example, “mi'o” is the same as “mi joi do”, the mass of me and you considered jointly."This means we can't talk say "Each of us carries the piano" vs. "We as a mass carry the piano" as (at least what Randall Holmes says) a mass should not be converted into the conjunction of its component parts by any logical operator because strictly speaking it shouldn't come with a privileged partitionHowever, jvs has two definitions, the second one (by selpahi) defining {mi'o} as "mi jo'u do" entered in December 2012. I don't remember any discussions of this issue at that time.I don't know if it should be {ro mi'o bevri} vs. {lu'o mi'o bevri} or {ro lu'a mi'o bevri} vs. {lu'o mi'o bevri}.So should we change the CLL to say it means {jo'u}, not {joi}?--To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
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mu'o mi'e .aionys.
.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
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mu'o mi'e .aionys.
.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )