On 8/23/2014 9:39 AM, Gleki Arxokuna wrote:
2014-08-23 17:14 GMT+04:00 Robert LeChevalier <lojbab@lojban.org<mailto:lojbab@lojban.org>>:
On 8/23/2014 12:33 AM, Gleki Arxokuna wrote:
Probably. I'm not sure that I could do it, and actually be
able to
communicate.
There are enough speakers in IRC who can at least produce Lojban
sentences if not in real time but at least with the help of a
dictionary.
But the suggestion specified meetings by email, not on IRC.
Bob, I only mean that Lojban nowadays is not a project but a fully blown
USABLE and USED language. There are fluent speakers.
But for the most part, they haven't been especially interested in organizational matters. Robin is one who has. He's wanted someone to take on the Secretary/Treasurer job from him for years. Not the slightest interest. Even the relatively Lojbanic job of keeping the Lojban home page current with news has fallen by the wayside.I'm sure there are. But I never see them; only hear about them.
There are enough people who talk to each other in Lojban and understad
each other.
For example, one would think that with all these fluent people, someone would have produced a in-Lojban blog and gotten a link to it on the home page. Matt and a couple of others had blogs a couple years ago that were so-linked, but IIRC they were about Lojban rather than in the language.
If IRC Lojban is so good, as some have said, someone could be selecting a "best of IRC" and making it easy to find.
But I admit that I myself probably wouldn't be spending a lot of time trying to read them. Reading and writing Lojban has always been hard work for me - worth doing but still hard.I assume you meant "cannot".
That's why allowing people who can produce correct sentences in Lojban
should be forbidden.
LLG might just disappear if we made such a rule.
Good for them. I approve. But I'm not one of them.
Speaking Lojban only is not a problem for a lot of people.
No one can stop us. And for the most part, not that many want to do otherwise.
Then why are we still talking about Lojban not in Lojban?
This whole thread has been posted in English. Nothing stopping any poster from posting in Lojban.
I'm not stopping them.
I suggest that you allow fluent speakers + those who can produce correct
discourses in written form like in email lists.
Who is disallowing anyone?
If a person can speak fluent Lojban why disallow him/her from BPFK and LLG?
Probably. I don't try very often.
I remember you logged in only once during the last 6 months or so.
Any conclusion about Lojban reached based on the voting membership,
many of whom date from when Lojban was NOT a working language, would
be bound to be erroneous. Then bear in mind that the primary focus
of the membership is on organizational matters rather than Lojban
matters.
Well, as for financial issues sure, LLG members might know nothing about
Lojban.
But in general this situation is silly. What are we here for if not to
learn Lojban and produce texts in it?
Since you ask, I presume you have not read the bylaws:
Section 1. Purpose. The Logical Language Group, Inc. is established
to promote the scientific study of the relationships between
language, thought and human culture; to investigate the nature of
language and to determine the requirements for an
artificially-engineered natural language; to implement and experiment
with such a language; to devise and promote applications for this
language in fields including but not limited to linguistics,
psychology, philosophy, logic, mathematics, computer science,
anthropology, sociology, education, and human biology; to conduct and
support experimental and scholarly research in these fields as they
may bear upon the problems of artificial language development; to
communicate with and to educate interested persons and organizations
about these activities; to devise and develop means and instruments
needed for these activities; and to accumulate and publish the
results of such studies and developments. In the furtherance of these
purposes, and in addition to the above activities, The Logical
Language Group, Inc. may award grants to individuals for
experimentation, travel, publication, study and similar activities.
Over the years, LLG has chosen to limit its activities with regards to artificial languages to Lojban as opposed to alternatives. But there is a lot more there than learning and using the language.
Not that I have a problem with others primarily interested in learning and using. I was one of them for many years. I could plausibly become one again, though I'd probably go in for translation.
I've found that part of my problem with talking Lojban, is that I have found not much that I am interested in talking about in Lojban. I am totally disinterested in the online social networking activities that most people are into these days. I read a couple of blogs, but have almost never posted a response or comment to one. (I was a lot more active on Usenet when it was still thriving, but I rarely post there anymore either).
But this is me; others may have different interests and priorities.
One might question the fact that almost all discussions of byfy
matters has been in English rather than in Lojban (even when
conducted by people who have demonstrated the ability to write
voluminously in Lojban). But of course if they were in Lojban,
there would be zero chance that I would read them, for example.
When Lojban was being developed people need to somehow explain that
"This construct is translated into English as..., use it in these
situations: ..."
At that time English was a platform to build Lojban.
This doesn't seem to have changed.Except for the fact that all of the postings are still in English.
However, nowadays Lojban is mostly complete and there is no need in English.
I could do so, but it hasn't been my priority given the lack of
time I have been spending in recent years. I could wish it were
otherwise, but it isn't.
Well, of course. But do you wish other people continue the great work
you've done in past? If so the number of written stuff in Lojban should
increase over time.
I'm not stopping anyone.The best way to change that is to post in Lojban and get others who can do so to also do so. If people are exposed to Lojban more, perhaps some will bother to spend time at it. Right now, they have to go look for it.
More and more people should become fluent speakers. Nobody forbids you
to use English or any other languages of course.
It just appears that English is used to the detriment of Lojban these days.
However, is it culturally neutral to continue using non-Lojban
for that?
No, but the purpose of LLG meetings is to get LLG business done (and
do so as quickly as possible, since business matters aren't the
highest lojban-related priority for much of anyone in the community
except possibly me), not demonstrate cultural neutrality.
What business? If selling books then of course (Lojbanistan is
non-existent, neither The Bank of Lojban).
You can look at the minutes/summaries for many years and see what LLG business is. If that isn't the sort of thing you are interested in, you may not want to be a member. (Or maybe you can find some new business that LLG should be interested in, and try to win support. Just don't assume that agreement will be automatic.)The bylaws were written before Lojban existed. No one has bothered to translate them, so complaining is a waste of time. Robin is probably capable of writing minutes in Lojban, but hasn't done so, and doesn't think it is very important. If someone wants to take over his job and write minutes in Lojban, he might not object.
But the bylaws, LLG minutes were written in English which is completely
crazy.
Lack of time is precisely the reason. And for most of us, dealing
with Lojban text (either writing it or reading it) takes a lot more
time than dealing with English.
Well, you are not going to rename this community into {ju'i glipli}, do
you? ;)
I assume that you are referring to the periodical that I edited for several years until 1994. A couple others took over responsibility, but never produced an issue in any language. If you can produce an issue of JL either partially or totally in Lojban, LLG might publish it. (Of course our snail mail subscription list is probably worthless at this point, but we could produce an online periodical.)
Indeed I just checked and the whole effort to do meetings in Lojban
appears to have been approved in 2002 but was removed and/or tabled
indefinitely in 2003. The one remaining motion approved in 2002 and
never superseded, was that official stuff on the web be translated
into Lojban. So far as I know, absolutely nothing was ever done on
this by the people advocating it.
Why not start from the beginning? Now we do have people who can not only
translate existing bylaws but to produce new ones from scratch?
Bylaws don't work that way. (Well, someone could produce a totally new set of bylaws, and get them adopted, but that isn't commonly done unless the organization has failed.)I've seen no evidence that anyone wants to do the work.
I want the community to go forward. Shall we continue making no headway?
They can be, but they aren't. And it has been noted that there are
active people nowadays who don't know how to add to jbovlaste even
though there are instructions.
All of the active speakers I know of know how to add words to jbovlaste.
So for them this is not a problem.
Good for them. Yet the issue was raised in this thread, by someone I think you consider active.
And I myself don't know how to do much of anything online on the web other than search it and read it. I still live in the 20th century Internet, still read and edit emails off-line.
(I don't claim to be active in this sense, and I also do not know
how because I haven't bothered to figure it out, never having wanted
to add a word.)
Remember, BTW, that jbovlaste is an official project, but its
contents are not automatically "official" merely by being added.
We'd need some sort of formally published dictionary, approved by
byfy and/or LLG (depending on the conditions specified in the 2002
statement).
Great. Why not start discussing the new dictionary (discussing in
Lojban ofc.)?
No one is stopping you.
Your replies showed that the Bylaws can be superseded by other
bylaws
that weren't even published.
So far as I know, no Bylaws have been superseded, and there are no
unpublished bylaws. So I have no idea what you are referring to.
I'm referring to your words: "They are supposed to be, but that item of
the bylaws has more or less been superseded with online meetings by the
non-publication of minutes."
The Secretary considers that the archived mailing list is sufficient to constitute the minutes. No one has objected. If someone did, then the Secretary would be obliged to come up with something or resign, and no one wants Robin to resign, since there is no one else who wants the job.
The solution is to find someone who wants to produce real minutes. Robin has said that he is willing to submit them if someone else produces them.
None of them were originally written in Lojban, and as yet, none
have been translated, so your response doesn't answer your original
statement about said initially written ones.
If published bylaws are all still valid and we can accet them as
ultimate truth then we ofc. can translate them. But by "we" I suppose
only members of LLG which I'm not.
Anyone can translate them. No one is stopping you. To get such a translation approved so as to supersede the English version would likely be a bit harder, since it would have to be approved as an amendment to the existing Bylaws
LLG pretty much takes anyone who wants to join and is committed to
the goals and responsibilities of membership (which are primarily
organizational - see the Bylaws).
^ I will reply later to this.
OK
BPFK takes people under whatever conditions the jatna sets.
Robin said anyone could name themselves a member of BPFK.
Then those are the conditions %^)
lojbab
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