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Re: [lojban] Re: Letter Frequency in lojban



   1)  TR NS,  You fail to take into account, as Gelki says Chinese (a large component of lojban, which has a very large occurrence of /c/ phonemees (see http://lingua.mtsu.edu/chinese-computing/phonology2004/phoneme.php where the only non-vowel that beats phonemes that are glossed in lojban as "c" or "c"-blends is /n/)

    2)  You also fail to take into account the hindi (which it doesn't appear is as frequent a phoneme, but sin't far down on the list) (see https://www.ldc.upenn.edu/sites/www.ldc.upenn.edu/files/agrawal2008.pdf)
 
   3)  Further, for many of the other languages on those lists (i.le. English, German, French) the /c/ is a bigraph, or trigraph ("sh", "sch", and "ch" respectively, and in Spanish "ch" is lojban "tc", allow it doesn't exist "freestanding") .  In fact, in German, as that same website shows, "sch" is the second most common trigraph. ( http://simia.net/letters/trigrams.html ), being beaten out only by "der"


      --gejyspa

On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 11:51 AM, And Rosta <and.rosta@gmail.com> wrote:

You are looking at letter frequencies, which is only a dim and distorted reflection of phone frequencies, too dim and distorted to be worth wasting time over, I think.

Vowels are auditorily more distinct than consonants, but are less stable diachronically. Having vowels as the frequentest phones strikes me as an optimal design feature for an engelang.

Your idea that having atypical letter or phone frequencies renders a language incapable of being widely spoken strikes me as lacking rational or empirical basis. Your thesis is not formulated clearly enough for it to be possible to cite counterexamples.

--And.

On 25 Aug 2014 15:58, "TR NS" <transfire@gmail.com> wrote:
Ever since I started learning Lojban, there was something about the sound of it that felt very unnatural. At first I thought it was just me not being familiar with it. As I spent more time with it and listened to usages of the language on YouTube, it became clear to me that it was more than this. In particular the letter `c` really stood out. Then last night I looked at  letter frequency comparisons.

I've seen a couple of different lists for Lojban and may do my own, but I think this list

    iaouel'ncmsdkrtpbjzgvfxy

(Note the list on the wiki isn't too far off from this, but includes various example lists in its corpus which is not really a good sample of usage.)

Now compare this to a wide swath of natural languages, which you can view here: http://simia.net/letters/. (Note that the Russian alphbet can be a bit misleading so refer to http://www.russianlessons.net/lessons/lesson1_main.php)

While I do not think the placement of vowels is so significant, it is interesting to note that no natural language appears to have more than four vowels at the top of its list, and even that is fairly rare. `u` is almost always much further down the list. Also `i` is very rarely the number one letter, `e` and `a` dominate. Of course, that is almost certainly from the use of `.i` to start sentences. Regardless, Lojban is clearly vowel heavy and a lot rides on clearly distinguishing all five of the primary vowel sounds.

The more significant difference is in the constants where almost invariably the letters `n` `r` `s` `t` are near the top of every natural language. Following them are frequently `l` and `d`. `m`, `k` or `g` tend to be in the middle but sometimes creep further up. Compare that to Lojban with `l` `'` `n` `c` and `m` (l h n sh m) at the top and it really stands out. Only `n` is in a position we could deem natural.

Some may dismiss this out of hand, but I think it is important and an inescapable reality: Lojban can not become a widely spoken language for the simple reason that, in this regard, it is running contrary to many millennia of natural language evolution. 

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