Re: [lojban] a modest suggestion -- nubu/kabu

Well, if that is how you use ordinarily use them, then you could do the same with these. (I assume that they are implicitly "stuck" with the most recent qualifying sumti when you first use the BY, and until you use da'o? I would find that a bit annoying, meself...)

--gejyspa

On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 12:24 PM, 'John E Clifford' via lojban <lojban@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Too bad; the sticky version is usually more useful (and is how I use ordinary BY).

On Wednesday, September 17, 2014 10:34 AM, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:

They would always be the most recent closed sumti, (unless assigned explicitly with goi), just like any other implicit BY assignment.

(and thanks re: the orthographies)

On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 11:03 AM, 'John E Clifford' via lojban <lojban@googlegroups.com> wrote:
Cute (especially the proposed orthographies). Are these sticky? Or do they always refer to the most recent appropriate sumti?

On Wednesday, September 17, 2014 8:32 AM, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:

Do we really need to? I mean, vy bu, ky bu, and y'y bu aren't in jbovlaste, and those are all in the CLL. I am not adding any new functionality to the language.

nubu: BY*
letteral (proposed oorthography: Ꮔ (unicode 13c4)), used as an implicit prosumti for most recent sumti starting with the word nu

kabu: BY*
letteral ( proposed orthography क (unicode 0915)), used as an implicit prosumti for must recent sumti starting with the word ka

du'ubu: BY*
letteral ( proposed orthography亶 (unicode 4eb6)), used as an implicit prosumti for must recent sumti starting with the word du'u

--gejyspa

On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 1:59 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:
Michael, will you please write down definitions of kabu, nubu, du'ubu to jbovlaste or at least here?

2014-09-05 17:25 GMT+04:00 Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>:

A subject that comes up from time to time is ambiguity with implicit BY prosumti, especially when they interact with abstractors. Now, according to CLL 7.5.8:
The main difference between letter pro-sumti and ko'a-series pro-sumti is that, in the absence of an explicit assignment, letters are taken to refer to the most recent name or description sumti beginning with the same letter

And similarly in 17.9.2:
If no assignment can be found for a lerfu string (especially a single lerfu word), it can be assumed to refer to the most recent sumti whose name or description begins in Lojban with that lerfu
That's all very well and good, but questions come up from time to time about what letter to use for an abstraction sumti. Some suggest counting the NU that marks the start of the structure, others suggest using the first letter of the internal bridi. This poses two problems. First, consider the following:

la normyn prami lo nu limna i la dorys nelci ny

Does Doris like Norman, or does she like swimming? It depends on which one of the above approaches the author uses (the first approach also has the unenviable problem of having a multiplicity of "ny" and "ky" used for events and properties, and their concomitant unavailability for plain vanilla sumti (at least for implicit assignment).)

The second problem is what do you do with an example like this:

la normyn nelci lo nu la rovr noi gerku cu limna ?

The first camp would have no problem talking about the abstraction sumti with an implicit BY "It's ny," they declare. But what would the second camp call it? They can't use ny, that's Norman to them. They can't use "ry", that's Rover himself. "ly"? Maybe, but it seems a stretch. They would pretty much be forced to use explicit goi assignment, ri/ra/ru, se go'i/go'e/go'a, or the like/

Proposed solution:

New symbols, nubu, kabu (and the rest of the NUbu family) that refer, and can refer ONLY to the abstraction. "But if they are a letter/symbol, what do they look like?" you ask. That's the beauty of lojban. It doesn't matter, Because we are talking here only about using them as evaluatable symbols, to refer to sumti, which any lerfu can do.

This breaks absolutely none of the current grammar, but I think would make discourse clearer and cleaner.

What do people think?

--gejyspa

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