2015-03-31 15:58 GMT+03:00 Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>:
I'm not saying that "slaka bu" resolves into ",". What I'm saying is that "mlatu bu", is (conceptually) a symbol. It doesn't matter whether you think of it as, or can't picture it at all. That's purely an orthographic issue. There are an infinite number (me'o me'o je'o abu xi no lo'o, if that parses?) of labels. Not all of them may have a symbol to represent them in written form. But that doesn't matter on a usage level. As a terbri, it just stands for something. If you have assigned it, it doesn't matter what you have assigned it to. I can say "la xank goi mlatu bu cu klama lo zarci .i mlatu bu genai mlatu gi gerku " If you haven't previously assigned it, then your listener has to figure out what it might refer to (or indeed, if it refers to anything at all, and is just some sort of hypothetical template used in an example). By convention, if it's one of the 23 letters of the lojban (Roman) alphabet (i.e a lerfu), we assume it to refer to the last sumti that started with that letter (but even that's not absolute, and can be overridden by explicit assignments). But that is by convention po'o. (CLL 17.9.2 Notice the words "it can be assumed"). But that's the only "privilege" given to "a bu" over "mlatu bu"
Exactly. This privilege multiplies rules making the language harder to learn.
--gejyspa--On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 5:14 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:2015-03-30 22:23 GMT+03:00 Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>:I think maybe you are misunderstanding the use of "bu". It means one thing, and one thing only. It changes the last word into a letteral symbol. "nubu" "slakabu"{slaka bu}, not {slakabu}."kybu" etc are no different than "ebu" or "my" in that regard. "VALSI bu" is equivalent to a BY, period.They are equivalent syntactically, grammatically but not semantically when used without {goi}. Their meaning is absolutely unpredictable, and that's the problem.Now, that being said, a BY (or equivalently, a "valsi bu") used as a sumti (terbri) refers to something previous. The only question is what.There is absolutely nothing wrong with saying, for example, "lo gerku goi by cu klama lo zarci. i by blanu" (The dog, which we will refer to as B, goes to the store. B is blue.) It is exactly the same thing as "lo gerku goi la sam cu klama lo zarci .i la sam blanu" or "lo gerku goi ko'a cu klama lo zarci .i ko'a blanu" And yes, "lo gerku goi denpa bu cu klama lo zarci .i denpa bu blanu"The only difference in usage is for implicit assignment. Using a letteral without a previous "goi" assignemnt is presumed to stand for the last thing starting with that letter. ("lo gerku cu klama lo zarci .i gy blanu") But I could certainly just say "mi xabju slaka bu" and leave you scratching your head as to what "," referred to. But it always resolves (when used as a terbri) as "the thing designated by the label "," " (unless you have preceeded it by a me'o.It can't resolve into "," unless you open a dictionary. I can never know what {mlatu bu} means and unlike {slaka bu} {a bu} doesn't resolve into the symbol "A" because one would search for a sumti tail starting with "a".--gejyspa--On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 1:03 PM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:--1. {bu} is used after vowels to anaphorically reference LA/LE-sumti with sumti tails that start with the same vowel.2. {bu} is proposed by gejyspa in {nu bu} and {du'u bu} to reference sumti that have sumti tails that start (or probably contain at main level) {nu} or {du'u} abstractions.This immediately raises a question: can a {nu bu} according to rule 1. reference {lo nupre}? If not 2. is indeed a new rule.3. {bu} is proposed to be used in mekso to reference certain symbols like {.alfas. bu} for alpha. Probably it's about {me'o .alfas. bu} since we are talking about formulae. In this case it doesn't conflict with 1. and 2. and just adds this new third rule, namely, that inside {me'o} strings such constructs as {abu}, {nu bu}, {.alfas. bu} get a new meaning strictly defined in the dictionary.4. Using {denpa bu} for "dot" without {me'o} can't fit into rules 1. and 2. From rule 1. and 2. we can assume that it anaphorically references {LE/LA denpa}. Neither using {.alfas. bu} without {me'o} can reference the symbol alpha. Instead, it would reference {la .alfas.}.5. Neither {uibu} can be used without {me'o} to denote smileys.If {denpa bu} and {.alfas. bu} can be used without {me'o} to reference dots and alpha symbols then a,e,i,o,u, nu,du'u are exclusions to this rule. And in this case we aren't able to reference "a" as a symbol without {me'o} since {abu} is always an anaphorical marker.So my proposal is:1. to always use {me'o} to reference symbols or to use fu'ivla for them like {denpabu} and {slakabu}.2. The letteral meanings of uibu, denpa bu, slaka bu are to be defined in the dictionary.3. {denpa bu} means {lo denpa} referenced anaphorically, it is close to {le} explained here or ri'oi. But even more correctly would be to show two examples identical in meaning:a) {lo denpa cu pendo mi .ije dy. xendo}b) {lo denpa cu pendo mi .ije denpa bu xendo}Clearly, {denpa bu prenu bu} would reference {lo denpa prenu} (no matter how often one would need that).{mi bu} would refer to {lo mi broda}.{ca bu} would refer to {lo ca broda} or {i ca broda} and thus be similar to {lo go'oi}.Interesting that in past people suggested using different {SOMETHING bu} to mark keyboard keys. No wonder {a bu} was never suggested as a name of A keyboard key because it's already taken by an anaphorical construct.
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.