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Re: [lojban] New metalinguistic term since the cmevla-brivla merge?



fau'u ru'e I didn't know about the difference between the "experimental" ilmentufa parser (which implemented the merge) and the "official" ilmentufa parser (which hasn't yet)

I'm not too familiar about the discussed pros and cons of the merge, but I think the simplification of the vocabulary expansion process (another on the pro side is the abilities of la-names to mix cmevla with za'e mulvla) is worth a few more mandatory <cu>s, whose elision tends to confuse beginners anyway. (I think it's a bit more natural to drop them after pro-sumti without forgetting it when it is mandatory, but dropping them after cmevla might; I could be wrong though, as I have been AWOL for a while)

On Sunday, May 10, 2015 at 3:04:54 PM UTC+8, remod wrote:
My understanding is that "merging" cmevla and brivla was rejected on the basis that it would have broken a significant part of the grammar.

{la lojban mo}, would no longer mean "what is lojban" (or similar).

The way to transform a cmevla into a brivla is by using {me la} ( {lo mela diplodocus cu barda} )

Did I miss the merge and the necessary changes to the grammar?



On Sun, May 10, 2015 at 7:39 AM, Spheniscine <sphen...@gmail.com> wrote:
If the cmevla and brivla have been syntactically merged, as implemented by the ilmentufa-parser, I believe the terms must now be redefined.

{cmevla} could remain as is; they still end in a consonant, have mandatory pauses before and after, and are primarily used for names.

As for {brivla}, I believe {lo cmevla ca brivla}. What is used to be known as "Stage 2 fu'ivla" can now be just cmevla; for example, I could say:

{ti .fetutcinis.} (This is fettucine), or {mi citka lo .fetutcinis.} (I eat some fettucine)

In those examples, the cmevla have been divorced from their usual role of "proper nouns", and are basically used the same way a gismu, lujvo, or a zi'evla would. Additionally, they're dead easy to use; any beginner who's been taught how to reformat their name into a cmevla can use tthese.

Of course, like stage-2 fu'ivla before it, this is meant to be only a temporary measure; there are two good reasons to "naturalize" any useful concepts into a lujvo or zi'evla:
  1. Avoidance of the mandatory pauses; too many cmevla in text will inhibit natural reading.
  2. The possibility of rigorous definition in resources like jbovlaste, with defined place values; as per the goals of Lojban, each {na'e cmevla brivla} should represent one single concept, and polysemy avoided.
And... yeah. So now we just had a demonstration of the problem: we need a new word for {na'e cmevla brivla}, which differs from {cmevla} both in morphology and in having a rigorously defined place structure. It is the union of the sets {gismu}, {lujvo}, and {zi'evla}. What should it be?

{kauvla}? {mulvla}? {rarvla}? Or something else entirely?

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