Re: [lojban] {ciftoldi}. caterpillar is not a cifnu

[Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>]

  Sorry, gotta disagree with you here.  Ask a four-year-old what a baby butterfly is and they'll tell ya - "caterpillar!" (and, ya know, pretty much any non-entolomogist over the age of four, too)

 http://a-z-animals.com/animals/caterpillar/

http://www.all-creatures.org/pica/glf-caterpillar-monarch-01a.html

http://animal-kid.com/monarch-butterfly-baby-caterpillar.html

  Now, if you want to suggest that a toldi has two different cifnu forms, I won't disagree... lo toldi cu  farvi lo  ma'urtoldi lo ciftoldi lo todvelfarvi

  (btw, interesting article here: http://www.npr.org/sections/krulwich/2012/08/01/157718428/are-butterflies-two-different-animals-in-one-the-death-and-resurrection-theory )

              --gejyspa

On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 5:14 AM, la gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:

The only mentioning of the concept of "larva" in JVS is this word:

{ciftoldi} = "x1 is a caterpillar (larva of butterfly or moth - not sawfly) of species x2."

However, {cifnu} = "x1 is an infant/baby [helpless through youth/incomplete development] of species x2."

I think (although it is supposed to be a naljvajvo or even a cimjvo) a semantic shift of the concept of {cifnu} since caterpillar is no more helpless than imago.

Compare stages:

With metamorphosis, e.g. butterflies:

1. sperm/ovum

2. egg

3. laid egg

4. larva

5. imago

Cangaroos:

1. sperm/ovum

2. egg

3. newborn (helpless)

slowly turning into

4. adult

Humans:

1. sperm/ovum

2. egg

3. newborn (helpless)

slowly turning into

4. adult

Tardigrades:

1. sperm/ovum

2. laid egg => fertilisation

3. newborn (full complement of adult cells)

slowly growing (via the size of cells, not their number) into

4. adult

So although {cifnu} probably can be applied to humans and cangaroos I can't see such a stage for butterflies and tardigrades. Thus, I think that such anthropomorphism in applying {cif-} rafsi to larva stage should be avoided and probably separate brivla should be used instead.

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