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Re: [lojban] Is "i" the end or the beginning of a statement? what about "niho"?



Yeah, I've been annoyed by this issue of ambiguity of end of transmission. Adding ".i" at the end of your final utterance technically doesn't solve the problem, as the listener will probably expect you're going to say another sentence… Even {mu'o} is unsatisfying: when one hears mu'o and then a pause, they can't be 100% sure the speaker isn't going to add "do" for {mu'o do} or even {mi'e ~~~} after that. {fa'o} has been designed for marking an unconditional end of transmission, but I find that rather too rigid. I'd have preferred a particle saying "Right now I've nothing more to add, yet I might change my mind afterwards and say something else. But so far please assume I've finished and feel free to speak up if you desire so"; maybe with the same grammar as ".i".

As of now in spoken Lojban, people seem to most often rely on the length of silence after an utterance for judging whether the time is appropriate to speak up to their turn. Yet Lojban was intended not to rely and prosody and sound length for carrying meaning, so using silence for signifying an end of transmission isn't great. On the other hand if you use {fa'o} it's prescribed anything you'd say afterward should be dismissed, which is a little too extreme I think.

—Ilmen.


On 13/07/2017 07:43, vpbroman@gmail.com wrote:
The question of whether "i" terminates a statement or begins one may not seem to make a lot of difference, but for me it determines whether I place the "i" at the end or beginning of a written line and determines when I pause in speech between statements. From the syntax rules, there seems to be no distinction, because "i" mainly serves as a statement separator, and at the beginning of an utterance as well as at the end the "i" is permitted but optional.

The critical question for interpreting the "i" may be: what happens when there is a long pause between statements, or perhaps a speaker turn? At what point is the prior statement complete, ready to wrap and ship, fully committed? It is clear that no statement is complete until you have seen the "i" (or "niho"...), and if it hasn't emerged yet, we are still waiting to see how the statement may yet turn out. Most bridi do not have every sumti place filled, but even if all the places are filled and then a delay stretches on and on, you cannot tell whether there is still a "vau zoho" to come, or a "fau lo nu lo xarju ba vofli", or a "giha mi bebna".
Until you hear the "i", you are just left hanging.

That is why "i" terminates statements, and why I place it at the end of written lines, and before a spoken pause if I pause.

Syntax like "i je bo" makes it seem like "i" may be starting this statement, but I think not. The "i" is terminating the previous statement, even if that statement is empty.
"i i je bo fagri" and "i je bo fagri" are equally grammatical utterances,
while "je bo fagri" is ungrammatical because "je" does not connect with anything on its LHS.

This made me wonder whether "niho" and "nohi" should be treated the same as "i", and now I think not. First, even though people try to do it, you cannot say "... niho ba bo ...". The "jek/joik/stag BO" connects two statements together, and this does not work over a paragraph break.
Separate paragraphs do not connect this way.

Second, when you are finishing one statement, you often do not know whether the next statement is going to be in a new paragraph.
You haven't decided what you will say next yet at that point.
Only after the delay for thought in between statements might you newly realize: now I'm gonna turn to something different. And since it is different, it won't be connected to the previous statement logically or with a tag.

That is why I now begin new paragraphs with the niho or nohi at the start of the written line, and after a possible spoken pause. The "i" that optionally terminates the prior statement may or may not be included just before the "niho".

E.g.

mi pu gleki lo nu penmi do i
je bo mi terpa lo nu rinsa do i

niho mi ba finti lo se cukta poi srana lo nu terpa i

mihe bremenli


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