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Re: [lojban] Is "i" the end or the beginning of a statement? what about "niho"?



{vau mu'o do} and {vau vau mu'o do} must solve the problem. {i} (indeed it's formally neither a start of a paragraph nor necessarily its end) must also alleviate the problem. If they don't that means Lojban simply lacks enough means to handle conversations with precise tools to reference uttterances that appear asynchronously.
{fa'o} as its definition says is not for humans 

.i le jbobau zo'u do cusku zo fa'o ca le nu do pu'o morsi

Em sexta-feira, 14 de julho de 2017 15:26:48 UTC+3, gejyspa escreveu:
.i is neither the beginning nor end.  It is between sentences.  It is officially a "linker".  If I hear you say "i" I will wait for you to say your next utterance.  OTOH,  If you are really that worried about turn taking, and do not want to really on silences that every single human language (spoken or signed), using "mu'o do'u" will do it.

                  --gejyspa


On Fri, Jul 14, 2017 at 1:34 AM, <vpbr...@gmail.com> wrote:
A vau is not the end, it can be followed by free elements that modify the preceding statement,
and if there was a gihek, then vau can also be followed by tail-terms and even another gihe clause.
Only I/NIhO is the real end.


On Thursday, July 13, 2017 at 10:03:30 AM UTC-7, aionys wrote:
It's the beginning. vau is the end of a statement and can normally be left out.

Same for ni'o.

On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 11:43 PM, <vpbr...@gmail.com> wrote:
The question of whether "i" terminates a statement or begins one may not seem to make a lot of difference,
but for me it determines whether I place the "i" at the end or beginning of a written line and determines when I pause in speech between statements.
From the syntax rules, there seems to be no distinction, because "i" mainly serves as a statement separator,
and at the beginning of an utterance as well as at the end the "i" is permitted but optional.

The critical question for interpreting the "i" may be:  what happens when there is a long pause between statements, or perhaps a speaker turn?
At what point is the prior statement complete, ready to wrap and ship, fully committed?
It is clear that no statement is complete until you have seen the "i" (or "niho"...),
and if it hasn't emerged yet, we are still waiting to see how the statement may yet turn out.
Most bridi do not have every sumti place filled, but even if all the places are filled and then a delay stretches on and on,
you cannot tell whether there is still a "vau zoho" to come, or a "fau lo nu lo xarju ba vofli", or a "giha mi bebna".
Until you hear the "i", you are just left hanging.

That is why "i" terminates statements, and why I place it at the end of written lines, and before a spoken pause if I pause.

Syntax like "i je bo" makes it seem like "i" may be starting this statement, but I think not.
The "i" is terminating the previous statement, even if that statement is empty.
"i i je bo fagri" and "i je bo fagri" are equally grammatical utterances,
while "je bo fagri" is ungrammatical because "je" does not connect with anything on its LHS.

This made me wonder whether "niho" and "nohi" should be treated the same as "i", and now I think not.
First, even though people try to do it, you cannot say "... niho ba bo ...".
The "jek/joik/stag BO" connects two statements together, and this does not work over a paragraph break.
Separate paragraphs do not connect this way.

Second, when you are finishing one statement, you often do not know whether the next statement is going to be in a new paragraph.
You haven't decided what you will say next yet at that point.
Only after the delay for thought in between statements might you newly realize: now I'm gonna turn to something different.
And since it is different, it won't be connected to the previous statement logically or with a tag.

That is why I now begin new paragraphs with the niho or nohi at the start of the written line, and after a possible spoken pause.
The "i" that optionally terminates the prior statement may or may not be included just before the "niho".

E.g.

mi pu gleki lo nu penmi do i
je bo mi terpa lo nu rinsa do i

niho mi ba finti lo se cukta poi srana lo nu terpa i

mihe bremenli



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--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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