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Re: [lojban] Re: CLL and modern Lojban





Le samedi 11 novembre 2017 14:57:25 UTC, clifford a écrit :
Lojban’s claim to be based on logic is not significantly different from the similar claim for any language (sentences derived by transformations from underlying semantic representations which are often presented as formulae in some higher order intensional logic).  JCB ditched most of the features of FOPL (the best then available) which gave for precision and most of the last 60 years has been spent trying to get at least some of that back (not yet all by a long shot).  Lojban is just an SAE language that looks a little strange because position in a sentence does not have a fixed meaning but rather depends upon the verb at the center.  End of borrowings from logic (hyperbole, but not much).
The logic on which Lojban is “based” is again a European creation (mainly Anglo-American and German, with a little French and Italian).  It takes no account of the logical traditions of India or China nor of the specialized languages developed there for logic.  So, it is hardly culturally neutral in the sense suggested.  Of course, the need for cultural neutrality was prompted by the thoroughly bogus SWH, so its absence is not very damaging, except to the repeated claims to have it.  



coi la pycyn

Thank you for the historical information about Loglan and Lojban. However, I (and maybe la sykyndyr also) tried to "define" what to be called the current and the future Lojban. That "definition" may be shifted from JCB's or the later creaters' will.

As for my point of view of cultural neutrality, the facts of the ancient India and the ancient China you pointed out cannot negate my theory.

 Some of what are studied in the ancient Indian and the ancient China are now translated as "logic" into English because of the property of studies related to reasoning. However, the subjects of those studies are reasoning, not the symbols of Sanscrit or Hanzi. Those cultures did not invent what can be translated as "symbolic logic", in which a new language consisting of symbols simplified and specialized for expressing logic was invented. 

As I have already discussed, that language invented for European logic are not logic itself. That language, as well as Lojban, should be able to express the ancient Indian logic or the ancient Chinese logic by defining suitably logical axioms and rules of deduction, just like the modern _expression_ of fraction $frac{1}{3}$ can express both European "one over three" and Chinese "san fen zhi yi"; the latter consists of "three", "separation", postposition that means "of", "one".

mi'e la guskant


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