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Re: [lojban] Re: CLL and modern Lojban





Le vendredi 17 novembre 2017 12:56:14 UTC, Benoit Neil a écrit :
It seems groups are much fuzzier than expected. Individual may accept to:
  • Improve, non backward-compatible way (= anything)
  • Bug-fix, non backward-compatible way
  • Improve, backward-compatible way (including additions)
  • Do nothing at all
These choices may apply to logic and grammar, leading to 4^2 = 16 possible combinations, even though some combinations are highly improbable and some others contain simply very few people (as la .guskant. said about former "group 2"). If we add "semantics" to logic and grammar, we get to 4^3 = 64. And if we add "No idea on the topic" as a choice, we got 5^3 = 125.
And inside some combinations, we find people in favor of X or Y proposition (Zasni Gerna of Xorxes, Solpahi's connectives, Zantufa...). which increases again the number of cases.
(Please note that I did not add "Bug-fix, backward-compatible" because from what I read, it seems merely impossible (correct me if I'm wrong). Else we'd have 6^3 = 216.)

So better not trying to but people in 3 "labeled compartments", I guess! That leads me to the conclusion that submissions must be evaluated on a per-case basis, with a stable and well-known evaluation grid.

***

Now about organizations.
I feel like the separation between BPFK and the GIT repositories maintained by the Coders' Group is nonsense (from an pure organizational point of view). I foresee multiple possible outcomes:
  1. Nothing changes: BPFK discusses/votes things that will never be included, and the Coders' Group include things that will never be discussed/voted. Lojban dies.
  2. Pure schism: each group "wakes up" (=becomes more active) and decides to build its own language. What will emerge is unclear to me. One sure thing is that the small community will be split into two (or more) weaker ones.
  3. Put in common:
    • By cooperation: groups (or some members) agree to work together (or merge) with proper means, common rules and common tools. That requires adhesion and (good) tools.
      • Cooperation may happen with renewal: groups may agree to create a new entity with new (or updated) rules.
    • By dissolution: one group may simply dissolve, leaving the other one the only "official". I personally think this is dangerous because we surely need the point of view of everybody.
    • By forcing: One group may force the other to accept its own way to work. The most obvious case would be preempting ("pull the rug out to"): BPFK could fork repositories and tag them as "BPFK Official" or whatever. This is unfair, but perfectly legal.
Of course, cases may be partial and mixed: some members may join the other group, while other create a new entity or a new language, etc. I just hope people won't be dumb enough to create a worse situation.
(The terms you were looking for are "compromises" and "trade-off"... ;-) )

That leads me to the conclusion that submission protocol/rules are to be proposed, discussed and accepted by a wide range of people. I won't enter pure language discussions, as I don't feel legitimate for this. But I'll try to propose solutions to help about rules and protocols. Any idea is welcome of course.

la .sykyndyr.



I prefer 3, "putting in common by cooperation". However, the Lojban Coders' Group seems to have no rule, and each member of the group behaves as he likes. Some of them are already inactive. Even if the BPFK decides to make contact with the Lojban Coders' Group, they will not be able to reach an agreement of the whole group.

I once tried the similar action as "putting in common by forcing" by posting a motion to the LLG meeting. My motion was to rescue the official information from lojban.org, and to manage them by a new organisation on github consisting of all members of LLG and no other persons. The new LLG page on the github should declare that the official body has no responsibility for the contents on lojban.org, lojban.github.io, la-lojban.github.io and any other websites. Any voluntary groups will thus be liberated from any requirements for maintaining the official contents, and will not be blamed for the false or inaccurate contents. Any learners of Lojban will thus have easy access to the official contents without searching deeply into the chaotic lojban.org or comparing the parser sources with Chapter 21 of the CLL.

That motion was implicitly seconded by Gleki (he agreed to a method that requires the motion being adopted, but made no comments on the motion itself), and not opposed by Curtis Franks, but the meeting was forcedly closed without any discussion or voting.

The LLG meeting thus died. I will try again the similar motion on the current LLG meeting, but it is likely to be ignored again guessing from their behavior to my past motions. I may try the BPFK meeting to discuss your analysis, even though it is also dying.


ki'e sai la sykyndyr
mi'e la guskant
 

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