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Re: [lojban] Re: CLL and modern Lojban



2017-11-08 15:54 GMT+03:00 Timothy Lawrence <timothy.lawrence@connect.qut.edu.au>:

> We have long known that CLL Lojban is not logically unambiguous, is not internally consistent,

What do you mean? Is there something that documents this?

> is not complete,

I agree and would like to help complete it.

> and especially cannot be completed in a coherent way that is consistent with CLL.

I don't know exactly what you mean by "complete". I am talking from a user perspective and I don't see why completing it would cause issues.

Some things I would like to see for completion include:



You probably mean that those need all to be officiaized by LLG? Because otherwise many of those things already exist.

- full dictionary fully described in Lojban
- complete reference grammar written in Lojban
- Lojban words to describe Lojban versions, Lojban grammar, place structures, etc.
- full website, available also in pure Lojban, with only official content and process of content approval
- user-friendly parsers and grammar-checkers easily available on major platforms

what is "user friendly"? Please, write requirements, other might try to implement them.

- official learning resources tested and refined (and also centralised so there's only one official one of each kind)

Impossible since different people like different methods.
 
- translations of core materials (i.e. those mentioned in above dot points) to major/target languages

have you started translating anything?
 
- governance structure in place to produce new Lojban versions
- automatic translators (from Lojban into natural languages) available

officialized by LLG? Seriously? Then LLG would have to formalize natlangs too...


It's a big wishlist, but I don't see how these things would break the grammar.

What do you think?


From: lojban@googlegroups.com <lojban@googlegroups.com> on behalf of And Rosta <and.rosta@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, 8 November 2017 1:35 AM
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: CLL and modern Lojban
 
On 7 November 2017 at 13:49, Timothy Lawrence <timothy.lawrence@connect.qut.edu.au> wrote:
"You can learn the language described here with assurance that it will not be subject to further fiddling by language-meisters."
- Complete Lojban Language http://lojban.github.io/cll/1/2/

I only use CLL Lojban. I believe that an unambiguous language needs to have a central, singular version to stay unambiguous.

We have long known that CLL Lojban is not logically unambiguous, is not internally consistent, is not complete, and especially cannot be completed in a coherent way that is consistent with CLL. To the best of my knowledge, nobody who understands and cares about logic and consistency has ever maintained that CLL Lojban is viable. However, there are people who hold that fidelity to CLL -- and to a standard dialect that emerges spontaneously from CLL-faithful usage -- is of paramount importance, outweighing considerations of logic and consistency. The community has always been polarized between these two positions; all that has changed is that the former group has grown at the expense of the latter, as the requisite understanding of the logical issues has spread.

--And.

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