Subject: Re: [lojban] soi disant soi dissent

From: Nick NICHOLAS <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 12:41:30 -0700 (PDT)

cu'u la xod.

>> If you look at all the usage Nick collected together, you also find short
>> distance vo'a not just with soi.

>Nick only listed it once that I can see, and it was an accident (didn't
>close off with kei).

Que?

http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9203/msg00034.html : Mark
Shoulson, lenu vo'a, short-distance (nu clause is x1 of main bridi, so
long-distance interpretation is blocked)

http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9303/msg00107.html : Colin Fine,
lenu vo'a, short-distance (nu clause is x1 of main bridi, so long-distance
interpretation is blocked)

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/2383 (Michael Helsem,
ledu'u vo'a, short distance, no nesting error, no actual plausible
explanation :-) )

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/5231 (Michael Helsem, lenu
vo'a, short distance, observative -- so no overt x1)

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/2308 : Cyril Slobin, noi
vo'a, __short__-distance (is considering co'o mi'e... to be a separate
sentence)

>That's good. We all want the impossible: a compromise that gives us clear
>usage of vo'a from now on, but deviates as little as possible from old
>usage!!

I'm sorry, but I still thought I'd formulated that:

vo'a is always long-distance
* except when used with soi (Robin Turner)
* and when used in an embedded phrase which would end up being the
referent of vo'a (Colin Fine, Mark Shoulson) -- to avoid recursion

With the possible exception of the final clause (which I won't actually
insist on), isn't this precisely your "most obvious answer"?

And like Rob says, I could just not mention soi vo'a at all; but that's
actually tantamount to saying vo'a should not exist at all. Won't get much
argument from me, but inasmuch as vo'a exists, it'd be nice to pin it
down. And students *will* see people using "soi vo'a"; it'd be
irresponsible of me not to explain what it means (or is meant to mean.)

My intent, btw, is to put all this in an appendix at the end of the
lessons, advocate the long-distance only as "most Lojbanic", but add that
this convention
actually characterises best what's been used to date (and that {lenei}
and {leno'a[xiro]} can be used to disambiguate.) I happen to think this
usage is 'wrong', too, but it does exist. You can say "this
usage was mistaken", xod, but doesn't that contradict "let usage decide"?
If not, how not? --- I'm honestly confused here.

--
== == == == == == == == == == == == == == == == == == ==
Nick Nicholas, Breathing {le'o ko na rivbi fi'inai palci je tolvri danlu}
[email-masked] -- Miguel Cervantes tr. Jorge LLambias