From pycyn@aol.com Tue Aug 28 12:41:27 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: Pycyn@aol.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_2); 28 Aug 2001 19:41:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 57394 invoked from network); 28 Aug 2001 19:38:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 28 Aug 2001 19:38:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r06.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.102) by mta3 with SMTP; 28 Aug 2001 19:38:27 -0000 Received: from Pycyn@aol.com by imo-r06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31_r1.4.) id r.8.19161720 (4012) for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 15:38:23 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <8.19161720.28bd4d2f@aol.com> Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 15:38:23 EDT Subject: Re: [lojban] Another stab at a Record on ce'u To: lojban@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_8.19161720.28bd4d2f_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 10531 From: pycyn@aol.com --part1_8.19161720.28bd4d2f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 8/28/2001 1:47:09 PM Central Daylight Time,=20 xod@sixgirls.org writes: > la'e zo klama =3D le si'o klama? >=20 le si'o klama be ma I am unsure about the claim about {li'i}; what would {li'i ce'u prami} be? = I=20 don't see lambdas floating about in experiences.=20=20 How can you (physically, never mind grammatically) write a {ce'u} in a fill= ed=20 space? But the idea is to reduce the number you have to write, so rule a=20 looks wrong. It is more efficient to maintain the status quo ante: {du'u} for no {ce'u},= =20 {ka} for one or more. It is occasionally useful to spell out the other=20 cases, of course, but not as a general rule. Well, I don't believe that {si'o} is in this mess, but if it were, that wou= ld=20 be the way to go, using explicit {zo'e} to get back to fewer {ce'u} Well, the nice thing about lujvo is that you get to pick what the places ar= e.=20 And there are devices for calling attention to special uses of various=20 places. As a general rule, the convention sounds right though (the simples= t=20 case of abbreviation). <2 Reading a. Understand that the older texts may have implicit ce'u floating about, including in places that are already filled! You're on your own, context is your guide.> The working assumption is that old {ka}s meant to have {ce'u} in the first= =20 free space and maybe (but rarely) elsewhere. That is the advantage of the= =20 suggested abbreviation scheme. Am I still automatically excluded from your purview? (if so will someone el= se=20 slip this on to xod) --part1_8.19161720.28bd4d2f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 8/28/2001 1:47:09 PM Central Daylight Time,=20
xod@sixgirls.org writes:


la'e zo klama =3D le si'o= klama?

le si'o klama be ma

<a. Always write ce'u, and never in a filled place.
=A0=A0 i. ce'u makes sense in li'i as well as du'u and ka.>

I am unsure about the claim about {li'i}; what would {li'i ce'u prami} = be?  I=20
don't see lambdas floating about in experiences.  
How can you (physically, never mind grammatically) write a {ce'u} in a = filled=20
space? But the idea is to reduce the number you have to write, so rule = a=20
looks wrong.

<b. ka and du'u are interchangeable if there is at least one ce'u. k= a
expects at least one ce'u, du'u expects 0 or more.>
It is more efficient to maintain the status quo ante: {du'u} for no {ce= 'u},=20
{ka} for one or more.  It is occasionally useful to spell out the = other=20
cases, of course, but not as a general rule.

<d. si'o implicitly fills up all the places with ce'u. But outside o= f
si'o, all empty places are zo'e.>
Well, I don't believe that {si'o} is in this mess, but if it were, that= would=20
be the way to go, using explicit {zo'e} to get back to fewer {ce'u}

<c. In kambroda lujvo, the ce'u is in the first place. I don't know = how to
lujvoize ka ce'u broda ce'u.>

Well, the nice thing about lujvo is that you get to pick what the place= s are.=20
 And there are devices for calling attention to special uses of va= rious=20
places.  As a general rule, the convention sounds right though (th= e simplest=20
case of abbreviation).

<2 Reading
a. Understand that the older texts may have implicit ce'u floating abou= t,
including in places that are already filled! You're on your own, contex= t
is your guide.>

The working assumption is that old {ka}s meant to have {ce'u} in the fi= rst=20
free space and maybe (but rarely) elsewhere.  That is the advantag= e of the=20
suggested abbreviation scheme.

Am I still automatically excluded from your purview? (if so will someon= e else=20
slip this on to xod)





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