From rob@twcny.rr.com Tue Aug 28 14:53:17 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: rob@telenet.net X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_2); 28 Aug 2001 21:53:17 -0000 Received: (qmail 28465 invoked from network); 28 Aug 2001 21:51:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 28 Aug 2001 21:51:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO telenet.net) (204.97.152.225) by mta1 with SMTP; 28 Aug 2001 21:51:47 -0000 Received: from riff (ip-209-23-14-36.modem.logical.net [209.23.14.36]) by telenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA28843 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 17:51:35 -0400 Received: from rob by riff with local (Exim 3.22 #1 (Debian)) id 15bqlC-0000Ff-00 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 17:51:02 -0400 Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 17:51:01 -0400 To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Another stab at a Record on ce'u Message-ID: <20010828175101.C820@twcny.rr.com> Reply-To: rob@twcny.rr.com References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.18i X-Is-It-Not-Nifty: www.sluggy.com Sender: Rob Speer From: Rob Speer On Tue, Aug 28, 2001 at 07:14:16PM +0100, And Rosta wrote: > 1. All empty sumti places within du'u fill with zo'e. > 2. In ka abstractions, the first empty place fills with ce'u and the > rest fill with zo'e. > Exception (or generalization): where context indisputably demands > a ka abstraction expressing an n-adic relation, where the value of > n is certain, the first n empty places fill with ce'u and the rest > with zo'e. > 3. EITHER (XOR): > 3a. In a ka abstraction, if an overt ce'u fills the x1 then all > following empty places fill with ce'u. > XOR: > 3b. In a ka abstraction, if a ce'u precedes the first empty place > then all following empty places fill with ce'u. Whoa! How did we end up here? I still haven't seen any useful sentences involving more than 2 {ce'u}s. 3a and 3b both turn {le ka ce'u klama} into {le ka ce'u klama ce'u ce'u ce'u ce'u}, completely obliterating the meaning and actually _forcing_ you to elide the first {ce'u} in order to actually say {le ka ce'u klama}. If I understand that right. I still support Jorge's proposal. If the only objection is that it takes over {si'o}, then I'd be happy enough without that part of the proposal, too. The all-{ce'u} ka seems to be only useful in metalingustics, though pycyn's and And's proposal seems to make it the default when you use ce'u anywhere. I'd be much happier if the metalinguistic "all-places-{ce'u}" word were made an experimental cmavo, or a mode in which people agree that {si'o} would refer to this precise concept instead of its normal, vague meaning of an idea. So what's left is: 1. All empty sumti places within du'u fill with zo'e. 2. In ka abstractions *without any ce'u*, the first empty place fills with ce'u and the rest fill with zo'e. Where context indisputably demands an n-adic relation where the value of n is certain, the first n empty places fill with ce'u and the rest with zo'e. 3. There is no rule 3. And I'll be happy to relent if you can show me what benefit there is to filling every empty place with {ce'u}. -- Rob Speer