From pycyn@aol.com Tue Aug 28 17:52:49 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: Pycyn@aol.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_2); 29 Aug 2001 00:52:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 65530 invoked from network); 29 Aug 2001 00:51:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 29 Aug 2001 00:51:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m07.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.162) by mta2 with SMTP; 29 Aug 2001 00:51:48 -0000 Received: from Pycyn@aol.com by imo-m07.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31_r1.4.) id r.111.48d8cc2 (2172) for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 20:51:39 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <111.48d8cc2.28bd969b@aol.com> Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 20:51:39 EDT Subject: Re: [lojban] Another stab at a Record on ce'u To: lojban@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_111.48d8cc2.28bd969b_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 10531 From: pycyn@aol.com --part1_111.48d8cc2.28bd969b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 8/28/2001 4:54:47 PM Central Daylight Time,=20 rob@twcny.rr.com writes: > Whoa! How did we end up here? >=20 And made them up by careful misreading and his own aberrant version of Lojb= an=20 (at a rough guess). <3a and 3b both turn {le ka ce'u klama} into {le ka ce'u klama ce'u ce'u ce'u ce'u}= , completely obliterating the meaning and actually _forcing_ you to elide the first {ce'u} in order to actually say {le ka ce'u klama}. If I understand t= hat right.> That was the point of the exercise, remember: to reduce the number of {ce'= u}=20 and {zo'e} that actually needed to be expressed, keeping as much of what=20 already existed as possible but allowing fairly efficient movement toward=20 more complex forms, should the need arise. Check the original; it does tha= t=20 fairly well. I admit that the short form 5-{ce'u} is a little too short, b= ut=20 it is the only one that works within the limits set (and it has its uses,=20 though there are other ways of doing it, as has been noted). <2. In ka abstractions *without any ce'u*, the first empty place fills with= =20 ce'u =A0=A0 and the rest fill with zo'e. Where context indisputably demands an n= -adic =A0=A0 relation where the value of n is certain, the first n empty places f= ill=20 with =A0=A0 ce'u and the rest with zo'e.> Simple, but unreliable ("where context indisputably demands" is going to ta= ke=20 in a lot of cases for some folk, none for others). So use the rule that=20 covers all the cases -- I've offered two that don't use up {si'o} or anythi= ng=20 else and rarely require more than three or four syllables, regardless how=20 many {ce'u} are needed. And agree with the first clause of yours (as it mu= st=20 to meet the problems conditions). Now, what is wrong with these proposals,= =20 especially the second? =20 --part1_111.48d8cc2.28bd969b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 8/28/2001 4:54:47 PM Central Daylight Time,=20
rob@twcny.rr.com writes:


Whoa! How did we end up h= ere?

And made them up by careful misreading and his own aberrant version of = Lojban=20
(at a rough guess).

<3a and
3b both turn {le ka ce'u klama} into {le ka ce'u klama ce'u ce'u ce'u c= e'u},
completely obliterating the meaning and actually _forcing_ you to elide= the
first {ce'u} in order to actually say {le ka ce'u klama}. If I understa= nd that
right.>
That was the point of the exercise, remember:  to reduce the numbe= r of {ce'u}=20
and {zo'e} that actually needed to be expressed, keeping as much of wha= t=20
already existed as possible but allowing fairly efficient movement towa= rd=20
more complex forms, should the need arise.  Check the original; it= does that=20
fairly well.  I admit that the short form 5-{ce'u} is a little too= short, but=20
it is the only one that works within the limits set (and it has its use= s,=20
though there are other ways of doing it, as has been noted).

<2. In ka abstractions *without any ce'u*, the first empty place fil= ls with=20
ce'u
=A0=A0 and the rest fill with zo'e. Where context indisputably demands = an n-adic
=A0=A0 relation where the value of n is certain, the first n empty plac= es fill=20
with
=A0=A0 ce'u and the rest with zo'e.>
Simple, but unreliable ("where context indisputably demands" is going t= o take=20
in a lot of cases for some folk, none for others).  So use the rul= e that=20
covers all the cases -- I've offered two that don't use up {si'o} or an= ything=20
else and rarely require more than three or four syllables, regardless h= ow=20
many {ce'u} are needed.  And agree with the first clause of yours = (as it must=20
to meet the problems conditions).  Now, what is wrong with these p= roposals,=20
especially the second?

=20
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