From pycyn@aol.com Thu Aug 30 18:53:52 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: Pycyn@aol.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_2); 31 Aug 2001 01:53:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 56120 invoked from network); 31 Aug 2001 01:51:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 31 Aug 2001 01:51:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d05.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.37) by mta3 with SMTP; 31 Aug 2001 01:51:32 -0000 Received: from Pycyn@aol.com by imo-d05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31_r1.4.) id r.6b.19d71b45 (4402) for ; Thu, 30 Aug 2001 21:51:29 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <6b.19d71b45.28c047a0@aol.com> Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 21:51:28 EDT Subject: Re: [lojban] Siver threads among the mold To: lojban@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_6b.19d71b45.28c047a0_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 10535 From: pycyn@aol.com --part1_6b.19d71b45.28c047a0_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/30/2001 6:20:14 PM Central Daylight Time, jjllambias@hotmail.com writes: > ni1: li piso'i ni la djan clani > =li piso'i jai sela'u clani fai la djan > > ni2: la djan frica la meris le ni ce'u clani > =la djan frica la meris le ka ce'u clani sela'u makau > I guess my problem with the second version is that it is set up as an indirect question wiht {kau} but can't be one, since it can't be a question at all: properties aren't questions. OHo. I think I begin to see what has happened as a result of the {du'u}-{ka} amalgamation. If {du'u...kau} is a set of propositions, then {ka... kau} is a set of properties, differing by what goes in the {kau} place. Put a {ce'u} in and you get a function that gives different sets for different values of {ce'u} OK so far. But now the {frica} part: in one sense, any two people will differ in this set, because they have a different matrix and thus different members in the set: one has {la djan clano} and the other {la meris clano} at he beginning of the paradigm cases, for example. But in the crucial factor, the number that goes in for {makau}, they will have (inter alia) all the same numbers. Now, the *right* numbers are different, but how do we sort them out from the rest? I think that may be the difference between {ni} and {sela'u makau} (but it needs more work). Of course, it would be {lo ni} since we may not know what the numbers are (maybe {lo ka} too? No, that is the unique function to questions). We could insist that {kau} always got only the right answers, but that makes nonsense of most other cases. But all that aside, I now am in the opposite position of not seeing the difference between the two again. The {frica} introduces the the additional factor of the bound {ka} (not really, but we are only interested in the two values); can we make a similar distinction in simpler cases and get the right results? {le ni la djan clano cu barda} makes sense, does {le ka la djan clano sela'u makau cu barda}? I don't think so, but it should if the {frica} case works Back to an earlier problem: You say quite confidently, having seen that the Lojban works out badly or some other how, that "He believes what he hears" is just a relative clause, not an indirect question. How do you tell? Consider "He knows what he likes," where the ambiguity hinges on "know" -- which is this one? or, wihtout ambiguity in the verb, "He sees what he likes." I am still worried that this question/relative ambiguity underlies a problem here,though it may not be the 1-2 contrast you are working on. --part1_6b.19d71b45.28c047a0_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/30/2001 6:20:14 PM Central Daylight Time,
jjllambias@hotmail.com writes:

ni1: li piso'i ni la djan clani
=li piso'i jai sela'u clani fai la djan

ni2: la djan frica la meris le ni ce'u clani
=la djan frica la meris le ka ce'u clani sela'u makau

I guess my problem with the second version is that it is set up as an
indirect question wiht {kau} but can't be one, since it can't be a question
at all: properties aren't questions. OHo. I think I begin to see what has
happened as a result of the {du'u}-{ka} amalgamation. If {du'u...kau} is a
set of propositions, then {ka... kau} is a set of properties, differing by
what goes in the {kau} place. Put a {ce'u} in and you get a function that
gives different sets for different values of {ce'u} OK so far. But now the
{frica} part: in one sense, any two people will differ in this set, because
they have a different matrix and thus different members in the set: one has
{la djan clano} and the other {la meris clano} at he beginning of the
paradigm cases, for example. But in the crucial factor, the number that goes
in for {makau}, they will have (inter alia) all the same numbers. Now, the
*right* numbers are different, but how do we sort them out from the rest? I
think that may be the difference between {ni} and {sela'u makau} (but it
needs more work). Of course, it would be {lo ni} since we may not know what
the numbers are (maybe {lo ka} too? No, that is the unique function to
questions). We could insist that {kau} always got only the right answers,
but that makes nonsense of most other cases.

But all that aside, I now am in the opposite position of not seeing the
difference between the two again. The {frica} introduces the the additional
factor of the bound {ka} (not really, but we are only interested in the two
values); can we make a similar distinction in simpler cases and get the
right results? {le ni la djan clano cu barda} makes sense, does {le ka la
djan clano sela'u makau cu barda}? I don't think so, but it should if the
{frica} case works

Back to an earlier problem: You say quite confidently, having seen that the
Lojban works out badly or some other how, that "He believes what he hears" is
just a relative clause, not an indirect question. How do you tell? Consider
"He knows what he likes," where the ambiguity hinges on "know" -- which is
this one? or, wihtout ambiguity in the verb, "He sees what he likes." I am
still worried that this question/relative ambiguity underlies a problem
here,though it may not be the 1-2 contrast you are working on. --part1_6b.19d71b45.28c047a0_boundary--