From jjllambias@hotmail.com Thu Aug 30 19:21:14 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: jjllambias@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_2); 31 Aug 2001 02:21:14 -0000 Received: (qmail 94962 invoked from network); 31 Aug 2001 02:19:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 31 Aug 2001 02:19:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (216.33.241.139) by mta1 with SMTP; 31 Aug 2001 02:19:23 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 30 Aug 2001 19:19:22 -0700 Received: from 200.69.11.123 by lw8fd.law8.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Fri, 31 Aug 2001 02:19:22 GMT X-Originating-IP: [200.69.11.123] To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Bcc: Subject: Re: [lojban] Siver threads among the mold Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 02:19:22 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 31 Aug 2001 02:19:22.0959 (UTC) FILETIME=[594B85F0:01C131C3] From: "Jorge Llambias" la pycyn cusku di'e > > ni1: li piso'i ni la djan clani > > =li piso'i jai sela'u clani fai la djan > > > > ni2: la djan frica la meris le ni ce'u clani > > =la djan frica la meris le ka ce'u clani sela'u makau > >But now the >{frica} part: in one sense, any two people will differ in this set, because >they have a different matrix and thus different members in the set: one has >{la djan clano} and the other {la meris clano} at he beginning of the >paradigm cases, for example. la djan dunli la pol le ka ce'u clani sela'u makau la djan dunli la pol le ni ce'u clani John is equal to Paul in how tall they are. How else would you use 'dunli'? >{le ni la djan clano cu barda} makes sense, Only with ni1 = le jai sela'u >does {le ka la >djan clano sela'u makau cu barda}? No. >I don't think so, but it should if the >{frica} case works But the frica case does NOT work with ni1. It only works with ni2. >Back to an earlier problem: You say quite confidently, having seen that >the >Lojban works out badly or some other how, that "He believes what he hears" >is >just a relative clause, not an indirect question. How do you tell? Because it means: He believes that, which is what he hears. Translating to Esperanto is helpful because relative clauses are treated much more clearly than in English. >Consider >"He knows what he likes," where the ambiguity hinges on "know" -- which is >this one? As you say, it is ambiguous. It can mean "He knows what it is that he likes" (indirect question, and the more likely interpretation) or "He knows that, which is what he likes" (relative clause, but it would require lots of context). >or, wihtout ambiguity in the verb, "He sees what he likes." It could mean "He sees what is it that he likes" (indirect q.) but much more likely "He sees that which he likes" (relative c.). >I am >still worried that this question/relative ambiguity underlies a problem >here,though it may not be the 1-2 contrast you are working on. The 1-2 contrast is the contrast between {le broda} and {le du'u makau broda}. In English both can often be said using the same words. mu'o mi'e xorxes _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp