From pycyn@aol.com Sun Sep 02 07:37:33 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: Pycyn@aol.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_2); 2 Sep 2001 14:37:33 -0000 Received: (qmail 23351 invoked from network); 2 Sep 2001 14:37:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 2 Sep 2001 14:37:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d04.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.36) by mta2 with SMTP; 2 Sep 2001 14:37:32 -0000 Received: from Pycyn@aol.com by imo-d04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31_r1.4.) id r.c.1a711358 (3894) for ; Sun, 2 Sep 2001 10:37:27 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 10:37:26 EDT Subject: Re: [lojban] the set of answers To: lojban@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_c.1a711358.28c39e26_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 10535 From: pycyn@aol.com --part1_c.1a711358.28c39e26_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 9/1/2001 7:21:49 PM Central Daylight Time,=20 jjllambias@hotmail.com writes: > The Lojban version allows: {la pol djuno le du'u da klama le zarci}. >=20 > I'm not sure that if all Paul knows is that someone goes to the > store, one can claim in English "Paul knows who goes to the store". >=20 > The difference I think comes from "who" being more specific than "ma". >=20 I'm not sure it does: Would {da} count as an answerr to {ma klama le zarci= }?=20 I don't think so; there is a relevance/informativeness condition on answer= s,=20 sure. {le klama be le zarci} also won't do. < =A0=A0 ko'a ko'e frica lo ka makau mamta ce'u means: There is at least one x, member of {lo'i ka makau mamta ce'u} such that FRICA(ko'a,ko'e,x) is true. Show me such an x, then! You are saying that the scope of the quantifier in {lo ka makau mamta ce'u} is not the whole bridi, that the x3 is somehow within an "intensional context". I don't think we can exclude particular places such as the x3 of frica from the general rule. We've already had this discussion about sisku, nitcu, et al.> I don't think that {frica} creates an intensional context in the way that=20 {nitcu} and maybe {sisku) do, so I don't have that out (which do apply in=20 some cases, however, or else we get needless falsehoods to easily). But,=20 suppose that the mothers involved are ko'i and ko'o. Then the set much=20 contain {ka ko'i mamte ce'u} and {ka ko'o mamte ce'u} and both of these wor= k,=20 applying to one and not the other. --part1_c.1a711358.28c39e26_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 9/1/2001 7:21:49 PM Central Daylight Time,=20
jjllambias@hotmail.com writes:


The Lojban version allows= : {la pol djuno le du'u da klama le zarci}.

I'm not sure that if all Paul knows is that someone goes to the
store, one can claim in English "Paul knows who goes to the store".

The difference I think comes from "who" being more specific than "ma".


I'm not sure it does:  Would {da} count as an answerr to {ma klama= le zarci}?=20
 I don't think so; there is a relevance/informativeness condition = on answers,=20
sure.  {le klama be le zarci} also won't do.

<

=A0=A0 ko'a ko'e frica lo ka makau mamta ce'u

means: There is at least one x, member of {lo'i ka makau mamta ce'u}
such that FRICA(ko'a,ko'e,x) is true.

Show me such an x, then!

You are saying that the scope of the quantifier in
{lo ka makau mamta ce'u} is not the whole bridi, that the x3 is
somehow within an "intensional context". I don't think we can
exclude particular places such as the x3 of frica from the general
rule. We've already had this discussion about sisku, nitcu, et al.>

I don't think that {frica} creates an intensional context in the way th= at=20
{nitcu} and maybe {sisku) do, so I don't have that out (which do apply = in=20
some cases, however, or else we get needless falsehoods to easily). &nb= sp;But,=20
suppose that the mothers involved are ko'i and ko'o.  Then the set= much=20
contain {ka ko'i mamte ce'u} and {ka ko'o mamte ce'u} and both of these= work,=20
applying to one and not the other.

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