Subject: RE: [lojban] li'i (was: Another stab at a Record on ce'u

From: Invent Yourself <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 18:25:38 -0400 (EDT)

On Sat, 8 Sep 2001, And Rosta wrote:

> Xod:
> > On Fri, 7 Sep 2001, And Rosta wrote:
> >
> > > > > I don't deny that there must be an experiencer. I just
> > > > > strongly question whether the experiencer must be involved in the
> > > > > experience bridi.
> > > >
> > > > How can I experience a bridi if I am not in one of its places?
> > >
> > > I don't know how to answer that except by the obvious strategy of
> > > offering you a bridi with all places filled by something other than
> > > the experiencer, and asking if the situation described (e.g. pc's
> > > sun setting over the lake, or my Northern Ireland conflict) is
> > > experienceable, and hoping that you will say Yes.
> >
> > In claiming {li'i klama} has a meaning which is not one of {li'i klama FA
> > ce'u}, you're claiming that "I experienced going (klama), but I wasn't the
> > goer, nor the origin, nor the destination, the vehicle, or the route".
> > What exactly are you experiencing then?
>
> Maybe I watched the going. Maybe I felt it. Maybe I felt its wake. Maybe
> I experienced it be reading about plans for it. And so on and so on.

In English we make a distinction between experiencing something and just
hearing of it. Where do you want to set the threshold for lifri? So weak
that it includes any imaginative inkling, any hazy notion, any awareness
of a possibility?

By your final paragraph I have experienced pregnancy hundreds of times.
But in English I can never experience pregnancy. In my sense of reasonable
Lojban, {li'i pazvau FA ce'u kei be mi} only when FA = fe; only as the
fetus. And even there, since I have no memory of it, whether I really
experienced it is a matter of debate! How can I have experienced something
of which I had no awareness? "Experience" seems to require the necessary
conditions of Participation and Awareness.

The gismu list says "x2 happens to x1". This suggests to me that x1 is
integrally related to the event, not a peripheral bystander. I so cannot
conceive of "experiencing" an event that I was not involved in, that I
have nothing more to argue.

All I can say at this point is that when I use li'i I will, in all cases I
can presently conceive, always put a ce'u in, indicating the role li'i2
played in the event.

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"We should destroy the Muslims' homes while leaving the Christians'
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