From lojbab@lojban.org Mon Sep 10 16:23:59 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojbab@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_2_1); 10 Sep 2001 23:23:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 66261 invoked from network); 10 Sep 2001 23:17:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 10 Sep 2001 23:17:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO stmpy-5.cais.net) (205.252.14.75) by mta3 with SMTP; 10 Sep 2001 23:17:42 -0000 Received: from user.lojban.org (dynamic231.cl8.cais.net [205.177.20.231]) by stmpy-5.cais.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f8ANHJ145292 for ; Mon, 10 Sep 2001 19:17:19 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010910142433.00b0c430@pop.cais.com> X-Sender: vir1036@pop.cais.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 16:47:31 -0400 To: Subject: RE: lo'e (was: Re: [lojban] ce'u In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed From: "Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)" At 04:57 PM 9/7/01 +0100, And Rosta wrote: >I don't know how su'u x1 and x2 are supposed to work, and nor do I know >how to implement what I argued for above. However, very tentatively, >and intuitively, I could start the ball rolling with this: > > tu'o si'o cinfo kei se su'u ce'u xabju le friko > >as a way of saying that the archetypal lion archetypally-has the >property of living in Africa. As for "We discussed the archetypal lion", >I don't know. Maybe > > mi'a simxu tu'o du'u ce'u ce'u tavla loi su'u be tu'o si'o cinfo > >All this is just a first stab, and there to be improved on. Nora and I, with less than full reading of all these intertwining threads of abstractors seem to glorkjunkie that si'o is supposed to be the archetype that you are talking about above. If this is the case then lo'e is a manifestation of that archetype (and not the archetype itself (which manifestation may or may not actually exist in the real world)). We discuss ideas, and not manifestations of those ideas. More specifically, while lo pavyseljirna may not exist, lo'e pavyseljirna is something that people draw pictures and write books about as if such things did exist, and those things are distinct from the ideas/ideals we have of them: the idea of a unicorn is not going to carry a fair maiden, the manifestation of that idea would do so. Now it might still be the case that we should use something like lo'e tanxe in mi sisku lo'e tanxe, because we probably aren't seeking properties, but manifestations that have the property. This is not quite what Jorge had in mind since it does not equate ka and lo'e, but it might clarify/correct what is intended when we talk about seeking a property (which if people recall was introduced to keep people from searching for noda when they were searching for lo pavyseljirna which does not exist). lojbab -- lojbab lojbab@lojban.org Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc. 2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA 703-385-0273 Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org