From lojbab@lojban.org Fri Sep 14 09:59:53 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojbab@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_2_2); 14 Sep 2001 16:59:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 72482 invoked from network); 14 Sep 2001 15:24:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 14 Sep 2001 15:24:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO stmpy-4.cais.net) (205.252.14.74) by mta1 with SMTP; 14 Sep 2001 15:24:59 -0000 Received: from bob.lojban.org (ppp17.net-A.cais.net [205.252.61.17]) by stmpy-4.cais.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f8EFOu087050 for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2001 11:24:56 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010913232447.00d8ecd0@pop.cais.com> X-Sender: vir1036@pop.cais.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 23:28:59 -0400 To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: si'o [was: Re: [lojban] Re: lojbabbitry a (ce'u) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed From: "Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)" At 01:32 AM 9/13/01 +0000, michael helsem wrote: > >From: Nick NICHOLAS > li'o > >Saying > >si'o is what goes into the x1 of sidbo is lamely circular, in any case. > >Without concrete examples (is Communism a si'o? Is pleasure? Is going to > >the store? Is me going to the Starbucks coffeehouse at 11:05 AM, last > >Monday?), > li'o > >The same goes for si'o: > >if not all "ideas/concepts" are either propositional (du'u) or > >experiential (li'i), for God's sake give me a specific counterexample, not > >an alternate reality, or Lao Tze's Gedankenexperiment of being a butterfly. > >I think the polysemy of the English word "idea" seriously interferes >with our use of SIDBO (x1 is an idea/concept/thought about x2 by thinker >x3). > >For instance, there are conventional topics of discourse, SLABU SE CASNU; >there are personal opinions SE JINVI; there are general mental phenomena >(however you define them) se pensi? >, which might be said to fall under the rubric of >XANRI; & then there are ideas in the technical-philosophical sense of >"concepts", or PENSI SEPI'O DA. > >Are all of these SIDBO? Should we use every other formulation >in preference to this ill-defined gismu? Or should we settle on the >one least covered by the others? > >I find it useful to use LESI'O for either the first one, or else >maybe LO'E...but if i have ever confused these with the last one, >i sincerely regret it, since i really wanted LA- something: this >is a name, a figurehead on a ship, but not not not an algorithm, >say. ("Freedom", "Brotherhood"..."Colorless Greenness".) > >Do i feel that there is a difference between LEKA BRODA & LESI'O >BRODA? Yes, if only because CKAJI has a place less than SIDBO. >Does DU'U or NU cover everything i might want to say in Lojban? >(I could always revert to the gismu; & probably for precise discourse >combine them with anaphora.) Probably. > >I have to admit i haven't been able to follow all the JARKI JE KRUVI >discussion of LESI'O LA'E ZO CE'U...i still tend to think of it as >an alternative way of phrasing, just as KE'A can be dispensed with >if you twist the expression around a bit; & not, something so >essential you have to include it in every subordinate expression or >give a reason why not. > >I guess i want to say: even though we want logical perfection >right now & fully airtight so the pretensions of Lojban can be >realized at last, the truth is, this does depend on the development >of Lojbanic psychology & this is a long, long way from happening >yet. > >CO'OMI'E MAIKL. la maikl says it all more clearly than I, it seems. I can't find much to disagree with. Myself, I can't answer whether there is a difference between le ka broda and le si'o broda, until I know what broda is. lojbab -- lojbab lojbab@lojban.org Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc. 2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA 703-385-0273 Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org