From jjllambias@hotmail.com Tue Sep 18 20:31:05 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: jjllambias@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_2_2); 19 Sep 2001 03:30:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 75603 invoked from network); 19 Sep 2001 03:30:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by 10.1.1.221 with QMQP; 19 Sep 2001 03:30:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (216.33.241.191) by mta2 with SMTP; 19 Sep 2001 03:31:05 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 18 Sep 2001 20:31:05 -0700 Received: from 200.69.11.27 by lw8fd.law8.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 19 Sep 2001 03:31:05 GMT X-Originating-IP: [200.69.11.27] To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Bcc: Subject: Re: [lojban] noxemol ce'u Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 03:31:05 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Sep 2001 03:31:05.0209 (UTC) FILETIME=[837C0690:01C140BB] From: "Jorge Llambias" la pycyn cusku di'e > > ni1 ko'a broda = jai sela'u broda be fai ko'a > > ni2 ce'u broda = ka ce'u broda sela'u makau > >So we are back to the claim that it is >the number buried before after the {sela'u} BAI. That looks about right, >except that I do not see what your {ni2} is now, since I never see anyone >(I >can't even find a case where you) use it. Almost every use is ni2. For example, example 5.5 in pg 261: {le pixra cu cenba le ni ce'u blanu} = {le pixra cu cenba le ka ce'u blanu sela'u makau}. The x2 of cenba has to be a property, not a number. Same for the many gismu places for which the gi'uste proposes ka/ni. They require a property, not a number. >To take an >easy familiar case, the amount that I am tall is 5' 9" in feet/inches, he >amount thad Jumbo is big is very in informal scales (and the amount that >Tom >Thumb is big is not at all in the same scale). And so on. In Lojban, please? I would say: mi mitre li papibi le ni ce'u clani = mi mitre li papibi le ka ce'u clani sela'u makau la tamtum cu mutce le ni ce'u barda = la tamtum cu mutce le ka ce'u barda sela'u makau How do you do it? >Ahah!? Is the distinction here between {ni ko'a broda} and {ni ce'u broda} >the oen that you are driving at with your strange division? But they are >the just the function and the applied function, not two different >structures >(any more than say {le mamta be la dubias} and {le mamta be ce'u} are. The problem is when you try to force functions in places that take properties. >(It occurs to me that at some point you said that the >answers to questions where what replaced the q-kau, not what replaced the >whole question. Arrgggggghhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I argued for a month with xod that they are not. I am obviously failing to convey to you the different meanings of {jai sela'u broda} and {ka broda sela'u makau}. I can't put it more clear than that, one is a number, the other a property. >Once more, the epsilon (member) function is defined on Fx1...xn as the >extent >to which is in Ref (F). In two valued set theory the >possible values are 0 and 1 and usually correspond to the truth values of >Fx1...xn. Great. That's ni1. But not something you can put in the x3 of frica. >Please use {ni2} in a complete example (it's ahrd to know what to do with a >{ka} unless one knows what the predicate is that it is subordinated to) >that >is not just a roundabout use of {ni1}. Maybe that will help. I note as an >aid that all of the examples given so far an purportedly {ni2} are in fact >{ni1}s as far as I can see (as I have pointed out in analyses before). Ok, according to you, their mother is the difference, to me who their mother is is the difference. To you, the amount is the difference, to me, what the amount is is the difference. It seems I can't convince you that what you're doing is using a relative clause where you should use an indirect question, something that English certainly allows, but Lojban, the way I understand it, does not. And you certainly won't convince me that a function with ce'u will do instead of a property with ce'u and makau, so I think this is how far we will get with this. mu'o mi'e xorxes _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp