From arosta@uclan.ac.uk Thu Sep 27 07:29:19 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: arosta@uclan.ac.uk X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_4_1); 27 Sep 2001 14:27:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 72599 invoked from network); 27 Sep 2001 14:27:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by 10.1.1.220 with QMQP; 27 Sep 2001 14:27:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO com1.uclan.ac.uk) (193.61.255.3) by mta1 with SMTP; 27 Sep 2001 14:29:19 -0000 Received: from gwise-gw1.uclan.ac.uk by com1.uclan.ac.uk with SMTP (Mailer); Thu, 27 Sep 2001 15:06:50 +0100 Received: from DI1-Message_Server by gwise-gw1.uclan.ac.uk with Novell_GroupWise; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 15:37:55 +0100 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 5.5.2 Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 15:37:28 +0100 To: pycyn , lojban Subject: Re: [lojban] Set of answers encore Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline From: And Rosta >>> 09/26/01 07:50pm >>> #arosta@uclan.ac.uk writes: #> What's a taxicab rejoinder? # One you think of in the taxicab on the way home that would have been=20 #devastating to your opponent had you thought of it when you were in the=20 #debate. Oh right. Us in Britain think of taxicab rejoinders on the bus home. The discussion has drifted away from qkau in interesting ways to which I currently have nothing more to add. So let me return to where the intensional/extensional digression began. # #"John knows that Cicero is a great Roman orator." Suppose so. #"Tully is Cicero" Usually regarded as a fact on a vaiety of historical=20 #grounds but unknown, suppose to John (or at least not something he has=20 #considered along with his thought about Cicero) #"John knows that Tully is a great Roman orator" No reason so far to think= so=20 #and tests may very well show that he does not even believe it (he thinks=20 #Tully was the Emperor after Caligula, the one who mumbled and stuttered --= =20 #Derek Jacoby in the movie). #"Of Tully, John believes that he was a great Roman orator" Iffy, but=20 #probably true on the evidence above. #"There is a proposition p such that p is true just in case Tully is a grea= t=20 #Roman orator and John believes that p" Safe as houses. # #This is pretty clearly intensional-extensional stuff, not restricted to=20 #epistemic predicates.=20=20 You objected to my "John knows that da is extension of tu'odu'u ce'u klama" on the grounds that he may not have had this thought. E.g. he might know that A and B went and that C and D did not go, and that nobody else could have gone, but he may not have realized that, lo and behold, he knows who went. So I will instead offer: "da zo'u There is a proposition p such that p is true just in case da is extension of tu'odu'u ce'u klama kei and John believes that p" --And.