From xod@sixgirls.org Thu Sep 27 11:57:26 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: xod@reva.sixgirls.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_4_1); 27 Sep 2001 18:57:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 29277 invoked from network); 27 Sep 2001 18:57:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by 10.1.4.54 with QMQP; 27 Sep 2001 18:57:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO reva.sixgirls.org) (64.152.7.13) by mta3 with SMTP; 27 Sep 2001 18:57:25 -0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by reva.sixgirls.org (8.11.6+3.4W/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f8RIvOE08242 for ; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 14:57:25 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 14:57:24 -0400 (EDT) To: lojban Subject: RE: [lojban] The Pleasures of goi (was: zipf computations & experimental cmavo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII From: Invent Yourself On Thu, 27 Sep 2001, Craig wrote: > > >>> Rob Speer 09/26/01 10:17pm >>> > >> #On Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 04:57:08PM -0400, John Cowan wrote: > >> #> Rob Speer wrote: > >> #> >(For those who don't see the problem with symmetry: names are > assignable. > >> #> >Pro-sumti are assignable. What gets assigned if you say {la djan. goi > >> #> >ko'a}?) > >> #> > >> [1] > >> #> If you know what ko'a means, then la djan. is defined to mean whatever > >> #> ko'a means. > >> [2] > >> #> If you know what la djan. means, then ko'a is defined to mean whatever > >> #> la djan. means. > >> [3] > >> #> If you don't know what either means, then they mean the same, but > *what* > >> #> they mean will arrive in future. > >> [4] > >> #> If you know what both mean, and they already mean the same thing, the > >> #> goi-phrase is unnecessary. > >> [5] > >> #> If you know what both mean, and they mean different things, *bzzzzzt*, > >> #> semantic error. > >> #> > >> #> This is called "unification" in Prolog. > >> # > >> #Hmm. That actually makes sense. I think I'll stop touting asymmetrical > goi. > >> #I suggest you put that on the Wiki, too, because I don't think it's > clarified > >> #anywhere else. > >> > >> I reject symmetric goi because: > >> > >> (1) Even if ko'a has already been assigned a meaning, you may want to > reassign > >> a different meaning to ko'a > > > > >ko'a goi la djan. .i li'o .i la fred. goi ko'a > > >You wish to interpret this as "John = Fred", instead of a reassignment? > >bi'u In usage we've been interpreting it as reassignment. > > Where? "Syntactically, ``goi la .alis.'' is a relative phrase (relative > phrases are explained in Chapter 8). Semantically, it says that ``ko'a'' and > ``la .alis.'' refer to the same thing, and furthermore that this is true > because ``ko'a'' is being defined as meaning ``la .alis.''." That comes out > of the refgram, chapter 7, section 5. If we define ko'a to mean Fred, and we > define ko'a to mean John also, then we could be saying that the two > definitions are interchangable (so John = Fred), da'o wipes all variables, so we need a way to reassign just one, right? or, less usefully (and > therefore not the interpretation I would advocate) that ko'a can mean either > John or Fred, and you have to glork which one it means. What a horrid alternative! No way! > >no'u probably works like you think goi already does: > > >ko'a goi la djan. .i li'o .i la fred. no'u ko'a > >ko'a is John. Fred is John. > > > Yes, that is how goi works. > > >> #(Incidentally, I don't need 2 copies of each e-mail - just reply to the > list.) > >> > >> Everyone is entitled to a vice. This is John's. > > > >I'm afraid John's vice is that he likes to keep the mailing list > >configured so that such duplicate mails are the default, requiring extra > >steps to overcome. > > Consider the alternative. Suppose John made ''reply'' go to the list; it can > do a lot more damage to send persoanl comments to a couple hundred people > than for one person to get two copies of a mail - in which case the can > delete one. However, I do agree that people should only reply to the list, > as I am doing now. How often are private replies sent? And if you are sending private material it behooves you, the one at risk of embarrassment, to protect yourself by double-checking the mail address. -- It's said that Mullah Omar has met two non-Muslims in his life. Others say even that's not true. Sami ul-Haq, Osama bin Laden's closest friend in Pakistan, runs the "University for the Education of Truth," a fundamentalist institution that educated and trained nine out of the Taliban's top 10 leaders.