From xod@sixgirls.org Fri Sep 28 19:34:33 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: xod@reva.sixgirls.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_4_1); 29 Sep 2001 02:33:07 -0000 Received: (qmail 83877 invoked from network); 29 Sep 2001 02:33:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by 10.1.1.221 with QMQP; 29 Sep 2001 02:33:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO reva.sixgirls.org) (64.152.7.13) by mta3 with SMTP; 29 Sep 2001 02:34:32 -0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by reva.sixgirls.org (8.11.6+3.4W/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f8T2YVd11419 for ; Fri, 28 Sep 2001 22:34:31 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 22:34:30 -0400 (EDT) To: lojban Subject: RE: [lojban] The Pleasures of goi (was: zipf computations & experimental cmavo In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010928213532.00ced140@pop.cais.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII From: Invent Yourself On Fri, 28 Sep 2001, Bob LeChevalier (lojbab) wrote: > At 10:54 PM 9/28/01 +0100, And Rosta wrote: > >John: > > > Invent Yourself wrote: > > > > no'u probably works like you think goi already does: > > > > > > > > ko'a goi la djan. .i li'o .i la fred. no'u ko'a > > > > ko'a is John. Fred is John. > > > > > > By no means: saying "ko'a no'u la djan." is bogus if ko'a is not > > > *already* defined. The whole point of goi (and cei) is their > > > defining nature. > > > >But you seem to be failing to recognize that ko'a, like cmene, > >do not have to be defined by goi. They can get their referent > >from context. > > > >English: It is big. > >Lojban: ko'a barda > > > >In neither case must it or ko'a have an antecedent in previous > >utterances. > > This may be the case in present Lojban, but when ko'a and goi were defined, > ko'a was expected to always be explicitly defined with goi at first > use. Other usage was *allowed* but at the risk of confusion if nonsense > resulted. The possibility of goi-less ko'a should not be allowed to crowbar apart the simple solution that goi should be taken to define ko'a, and no'u be taken to refer to an existing ko'a without reassigning it. It is enough to establish a fail-safe usage that has solid meaning; it is not necessary to make sure each cmavo can never be used in a dumb manner. That's where this discussion is going. If somebody wants to intentionally be confusing and use undefined ko'a, no'u that they feel reassign ko'a, goi that they think don't reassign existing ko'a, or invisible ink on the back of a watermelon, that's their option. -- It's said that Mullah Omar has met two non-Muslims in his life. Others say even that's not true. Sami ul-Haq, Osama bin Laden's closest friend in Pakistan, runs the "University for the Education of Truth," a fundamentalist institution that educated and trained nine out of the Taliban's top 10 leaders.