From jjllambias@hotmail.com Wed Oct 03 15:55:13 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: jjllambias@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_4_1); 3 Oct 2001 22:53:08 -0000 Received: (qmail 29699 invoked from network); 3 Oct 2001 22:53:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by 10.1.1.221 with QMQP; 3 Oct 2001 22:53:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (216.33.241.193) by mta3 with SMTP; 3 Oct 2001 22:55:12 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 3 Oct 2001 15:55:12 -0700 Received: from 200.69.11.248 by lw8fd.law8.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 03 Oct 2001 22:55:11 GMT X-Originating-IP: [200.69.11.248] To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Bcc: Subject: Re: [lojban] Reading lojban textbook Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 22:55:11 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Oct 2001 22:55:12.0079 (UTC) FILETIME=[753F15F0:01C14C5E] From: "Jorge Llambias" la and cusku di'e >I find there to be a persistent and insidious ambiguity in Lojban >between grammatical categories and logical ones. So it seems to me as >though Sumti can be a relation between phrases or between >things. There is an ambiguity. The word "sumti" in English is used for things like "ko'a", "le klama", "zo mamta", "le ka melbi", and so on, based just on their form, and independently of whether or not they are used in any predication. We say "le klama" is a sumti. I suppose we could say in Lojban something like: lu le zarci li'u sumti lu mi klama le zarci li'u li re That would mean that "le zarci" is a sumti in its relationship with "mi klama le zarci", not all by itself. However, the way I interpret the gi'uste, the use in Lojban should be something more like: lo'e zukte cu sumti le du'u ce'u dunda ce'u ce'u kei li pa "The first argument of the dunda-relationship is an agent. Most of these words suffer similar ambiguities. mu'o mi'e xorxes _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp